ECN Forum
Posted By: Niko stranded wire and devices - 06/12/11 04:47 PM
Stranded wires under the device terminals. I know it is not an NEC requirements but i need help finding the answer if it is allowed or not.
I looked in my UL 2010 white book but i wasn't able to find anything.

Is it a manufacturer instruction that stranded wires can not be installed on the devices or UL requirement?

Thanks.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: stranded wire and devices - 06/12/11 06:16 PM
Standard devices are listed for stranded or solid wire.

From the White book RTRT

Quote
Terminals of the wire-binding screw, setscrew, or screw-actuated back
wired clamping types are suitable for use with both solid and stranded
building wires.
Posted By: Niko Re: stranded wire and devices - 06/12/11 06:58 PM
Unless the instructions state otherwise right?
Posted By: gfretwell Re: stranded wire and devices - 06/12/11 07:21 PM
I am not sure how the instructions can defy the listing standard and still call themselves listed.
Do you have an example?

I know the back stabs are solid only but this refers to the various styles of screw terminal
Posted By: Niko Re: stranded wire and devices - 06/12/11 07:31 PM

From Pass & Seymour:

Side wire accepts #12 – #14 AWG solid wire.

For trade master TR receptacle 3232
Posted By: NJwirenut Re: stranded wire and devices - 06/12/11 10:41 PM
With stranded wire, I always use the pressure plate type receptacles, or put spade lug crimps onto the conductors for use with the standard screws.
Posted By: luckyshadow Re: stranded wire and devices - 06/12/11 11:14 PM
According to the UL white book

Receptacles are listed to use stranded wire as long as it is terminated by one of the following: wire-binding screw, setscrew,or screw actuated back wired clamp type terminal

Switches are not listed to use stranded wire.

Spade lug or fork crimp terminals on the stranded wire is not a listed method for terminating the conductor to the device.
Posted By: LarryC Re: stranded wire and devices - 06/13/11 01:32 AM
Does the stranding have to be the standard 19 strand or could it be the extra fine stranding with a strand count of 39 or 51 strands?
Posted By: gfretwell Re: stranded wire and devices - 06/13/11 02:20 AM
Table 8 specifies the stranding and that fine stranded wire is not it. You really get into this when guys stuff it in a regular set screw lug. You need the kind with a shaped washer on the set screw to catch all the strands and compress them in the lug.
Posted By: Niko Re: stranded wire and devices - 06/13/11 04:41 AM
Originally Posted by gfretwell
Standard devices are listed for stranded or solid wire.

From the White book RTRT

Quote
Terminals of the wire-binding screw, setscrew, or screw-actuated back
wired clamping types are suitable for use with both solid and stranded
building wires.


I agree, but if the manufacturer states solid only then you have to follow instructions that come with the product. Right?
Posted By: gfretwell Re: stranded wire and devices - 06/13/11 05:36 AM
I suppose it depends on where you see it. I looked around on the P&S web site for over an hour tonight. I see a slick brochure that says the side terminals re OK with 14 and 12 ga solid wire and the back wire terminals are OK for 14 and 12 ga solid copper wire "only".
I find a lot of specification sheets but not one for the 3232 series. They just say "copper wire only".

I have a question in to the tech support guys there to see what this really means.
Posted By: Niko Re: stranded wire and devices - 06/13/11 07:39 AM
Here is the link.

http://www.legrand.us/passandseymour/receptacles/residential-duplex/tamper-resistant/3232trw.aspx

Posted By: gfretwell Re: stranded wire and devices - 06/13/11 08:19 AM
Yup that is the one I saw but that is a sales brochure, not the technical spec or the installation instructions so I am not sure it meets the 110.3(B) test.

Quote
# Side wire accepts #12 – #14 AWG solid wire.
# Push wire accepts #14 AWG solid only.


You note they say "only" on the push in.


This will still get back to the listing standard if you don't have this in the "instructions included in the listing or labeling." [110.3(B)]
Is there something written on or included in the box?
Posted By: gfretwell Re: stranded wire and devices - 06/13/11 05:29 PM
This is what P&S says.

Quote
Greg, it was an omission on our part on the brochures.
As you already know this is covered by E140596 - RTRT.

Terminals of the wire-binding screw, setscrew, or screw-actuated back-wired clamping types are
suitable for use with both solid and stranded building wires.

Legrand | PASS & SEYMOUR

Robert Scott
Team Leader, Technical Support
Electrical Wiring Systems Division
Legrand, North America

800.223.4185 x 88381
robert.scott@legrand.us
www.legrand.us/passandseymour



Posted By: Niko Re: stranded wire and devices - 06/14/11 07:30 AM
Thanks Greg.

Posted By: renosteinke Re: stranded wire and devices - 06/14/11 01:07 PM
If I have a quarrel with 'the trade,' it's the way folks would rather parse words than actually learn the trade before dissecting everything they can find printed somewhere.

I swear, some folks would call the manufacturer with a qusetion, then construe the receptionists' cheerful "Good Morning" as a demand that the afternoon be gloomy.

We're not lawyers, and we shouldn't pretend to be.

For all their efforts, testing labs do not have the wisdom of Solomon, nor do they anticipate every possible variation. "Has not been evaluated" is but a way of saying 'we don't know.' It does not neam 'forbidden.'

Nor is this a world where only 'perfection' and 'unacceptable' exist. There's plenty of room for 'good enough.'
Posted By: gfretwell Re: stranded wire and devices - 06/14/11 06:59 PM
Quote
"Has not been evaluated" is but a way of saying 'we don't know.' It does not mean 'forbidden.'


"Has not been evaluated" does mean "not listed for that application" so that usually means it will not be approved by the AHJ.

That really translates to "forbidden" if you are getting an inspection, doesn't it? wink
Posted By: renosteinke Re: stranded wire and devices - 06/14/11 09:09 PM
That, Greg, is where, IMO, our friend at UL are more than a little dishonest.

I guarantee that they answer nearly every question with some variation of 'we don't know.' "Has not been evaluated" is one of the more common examples.

Take ANY electrical fitting with specified pipe threads on it. NONE of those threads have been 'evaluated' for connection to anything else with pipe threads.

Or, take wire nuts. NO wire nuts have been 'evaluated' for use with the wires twisted together. Nor is UL willing to say that twisting the wires is in any way incorrect.

So, your construction that 'not evaluated' means 'not listed' is incorrect. Tempting as it is, the two statements are not the same.

"Not evaluated" may mean nothing more than that the testing protocol did not consider that particular situation. An example might be to ask about painting cabinets and conduit. While the testing standard requires some corrosion protection on the unit before it gets the lable, the question of someone adding paint later is generally not addressed. Very few things have ever been 'evaluated' for a coat of paint. Or, for that matter, cleaning with soap and water. It's just not part of the protocol.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: stranded wire and devices - 06/14/11 09:23 PM
That is going to be between you and your local AHJ.

It does not say things have to be listed in 110.2 only that they are approved. Your AHJ can pretty much approve anything he wants but listing by a NRTL is a handy/safe way to make that decision. By a like token they could disapprove a listed product. Issues surrounding the Purple Ideal 65 wire nut spring to mind. There are a few AHJs who believe CPSC over U/L on that and will not accept aluminum/copper splices with them.

ZMVV in the white book does not talk about twisting the wires in any way. It defers to the manufacturer's instructions. Most I have read say "it is not necessary to twist the wires" but it doesn't say you can't.
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: stranded wire and devices - 06/14/11 11:15 PM
Having n NRTL label/listing is a very helpful tool. Having to 'evaluate' items at the time of inspection would be a real nightmare, IMHO.

Off topic but related.....

Recently, an assortment of LED luminaires (mostly surface mounted decorative) are causing a 'stir'. One that was uninstalled for inspection purposes lacks any label/listing; assembly and components. HO/GC are attempting to 'find' some documentation. Transformers/drivers are 'mounted' with either silicone or some adhesive, no facility for EGC, missing nipples/bushings for wiring passing thru the sheetmetal shell, etc. There's about 1-11/2 hours of inspection time & counter time already in this.

Posted By: gfretwell Re: stranded wire and devices - 06/15/11 01:30 AM
Usually I see people trying to slide this by using a cord and plug connection. Then they say it is just a lamp.
Rope light gets hung this way all the time.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: stranded wire and devices - 06/15/11 01:32 AM
In these days of declining budgets, have you thought of charging extra when you do these evaluations?
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: stranded wire and devices - 06/15/11 03:12 AM
Greg:

IF there was a 'fee' that could be charged.....I guess it would be..."Happy Days are here again"

State law into plain english is 'as many inspections as it takes'; no additional fees for re-insp, off hours, nights, weekends, holidays.

Posted By: gfretwell Re: stranded wire and devices - 06/15/11 04:09 AM
That is strange to me. My reinspection fee was $150, although I never charged anyone for that. (I always found a way to save them). Lee County charges a reinspection fee too. It used to be $35 but I think it is $50 now.
I was really thinking about a "value added service", beyond regular building inspections tho. If you are certifying a piece of equipment that is not listed, that is not really a building inspection. The problem might be a legal liability.
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: stranded wire and devices - 06/15/11 06:28 PM
Greg:

"The problem might be a legal liability."

Yes, that's about the reason. Along with possible conflict issues; the rules are the rules.


Posted By: harold endean Re: stranded wire and devices - 06/17/11 01:48 PM
John,

Sometimes I wish we had re-inspection fees, how many times have we gone back on a HO job that takes 3 or 4 or more times to get it good enough to pass inspection.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: stranded wire and devices - 06/17/11 06:24 PM
Unless you are really whizzing off the inspector, they usually find a way out of charging you the reinspection fee.

I used to call it a "Partial" and OK everything that was OK, then have them call me back to see the things they fixed. Lee County also does something I started years earlier. If it is something you can get a good picture of, send me a picture in an Email.

On the structural for my tie beam my inspector was fine with me taking pictures of the additional steel he wanted and as long as I got it to him by the end of the day, it went in as a "pass". (that is why I have such nice pictures of my tie beam steel on my web page). They all have web connected laptops in their truck.
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