#1 - I'm not looking to slam Home Inspectors here. I would like is to see input from any that might be amongst us.

I think that Home Inspection itself is a good idea as a compromise between having everything thoroughly inspected by multiple trades or nothing at all. With that said, what should be inspected and to what degree? Are there any guidelines anywhere?

I know that many areas may have no qualifications to be met for a person engaging in Home Inspection. What do you think should be required? (what would be reasonable?)

How can we coexist or work together?
No Horror stories please!

Bill

Bill:
Horror stories aside....my thoughts..
NJ currently has no lic requirements for Home Inspectors. You need an ad in the phonebook, or a contact with a realtor or lawyer, the ability to write (?), some paper, and you're in.

Yes, we have some "pros" that do a good job, and they are unhappy with the regs also.

THe State is "working" on some type of guidelines.

BTW, some towns require a "CCO" (Continued Certificate of Occupancy) for resi that is changing ownership. It can be a good idea, as the various AHJ's that perform regular inspections do the CCO's in some towns.

All our AHJ's have State Licenses, and utilize the Uniform Construction Code.

IMHO, how many individuals are capable of learning & maintaining current knowledge of all the "codes" that are involved with a resi structure. (Elec., Plumb, Fire, Building, Etc)

Boy, this subject can take a bunch of twists & turns.....If I'm rambling...'scuse me. I have no axe to grind, just that a consumer should "get what they pay for" (The "real serious" horror stories are waiting)

Happy New Year
John

John,

Thanks, I have seen too many instances where no inspection was done by anyone and truly feel sorry for the new buyers and their "Money Pit". Inspections where something was missed are another story and proper (reasonable) training/qualifcations should cut down on serious problems being missed.

How much should they know? I don't know the answer. Is the main purpose of the Home Inspection for Safety reasons, or to more accurately gauge the value of the property being sold?

Bill

Bill,

I have to agree with John, 100% because I too am an AHJ in NJ and I have seen home inspectors who are good and some that don't know the difference between aluminun and copper wire. I was in my own business for 15 years and I was called out many times to defend a house. ( Even if the house needed work, I only commented on the work that I inspected.)

Harold

Bill,

First, my quals (or lack thereof). I am a GC (15 years), licensed electrician (12 years), home inspector and pest inspector (3 years). I am certified by the ICC. I have also been a real estate agent and broker. I, also, will not do any work on a home I inspected or inspect a home that I have worked on for at least one year after the inspection or the work.

Now I get real riled when I see an inspector ask a question that I see an electrician, home owner or contractor ask and get slammed where the electrician, GC or homeowner received TLC.

I feel that we need to accept the fact that all of the trades (electricians, plumbers, drywallers, framers and inspectors) need to educate each other as to when to call in the pro and quit demeaning each other.

Part of the problem is that in the HI industry, several HI Associations (predominately ASHI and NAHI)are trying to run everybody else out. They push for legislation that will only recognize them, this includes not accepting the certifications of the ICC (the guys who write the codes). This creates a lot of animosity and fragmentation in the HI industry. Another part is that the National Association of Realtors wants to control the HI's (creating a big conflict of interest). Another problem is that the older trades (electricians in particular) don't like the new kid on the block and sometimes go out of their way to show it.

Many HI's want to do the right thing and spend a lot of money and time trying to learn whats right. These folks we need to reach out and help. Teach them what to look for so that they can be of assistance in protecting the public. Not teach them to be electricians, but TEACH THEM WHEN THEY NEED TO CALL THE PROS. Answer their questions and guide them, not demean them.
The other thing that needs to be done is provide support when they are trying to get the AHJ to pass appropriate legislation for licensing and keep them out of control of the state real estate commissions. The ones who don't try and learn, well.., the courts and lawyers will eventually take care of them.

As in all endeavors, there are the good, the bad and the idiots.

BTW, these are my feelings and are not a reflection or opinion of anybody or anything else, living dead or unborn (Got to get that disclaimer in there).

Hotline1
There are a lot of AHJ's out there who stay current on all aspects of residential construction, why are they different than a home inspector that takes the time and money to learn and stay informed? I spend about 40 hours a year in formal continuing education and many more in just being nosey and asking questions.

Bob

Bob,

I agree with your sentiments here. Home Inspection is a necessary service. In my opinion, the fact that someone is seeking knowledge to do their job better should be seen as an opportunity for discussion and collaboration. There should be a way that we can work together to our mutual benefit.

My thoughts are, that maybe through a little discussion, some of the problems and misunderstandings that often come up can be dissolved.

Bill

Unfortunatly I have yet to see a home inspector worth $0.01. Since the ones in this area do not have to have any experience, i have too many horror stories.
The one the realators use here are the one that give the agent the report the agent or bank wants-- the H*** with the house condition really is. I have seen this way too many times.
I wish the state would require licensing. Then maybe we would see honest inspectors. There maybe be some of the honest ones here but I have not seen them yet. Since I do not suffer fools and con artists at all, I doubt I will ever get along with them.

nesparky,

Unfortunately, the good and the bad can be found in all occupations. I agree that in areas where no regulation or requirements exist things can be pretty bad sometimes, but this should eventually improve. IMO, we've got to respect any person that seeks the knowledge to do their job better.

Bill

It has been my experience that most home inspectors take a cursory inspection of the electrical & mechanical systems and, in the event that something seems amiss, they recommend a professional assessment.

I sense frustration.....from the real HI's , echoing the real electricians here.......

On my turf, inspectors are as scarce as nats in a windstorm, so we consider ANY authority
(or those whom are seen as authority)
as a blessing, however disguised.

I can't see how any one individual could assume the finer points of all trades, yet i can imagine those trades being solicited for the finer points, so i'm all for working with them whenever possible.

Part of the solution is the ugly L term, 'liability' , i say this not to be confrontational, it applies to the EC as well as any other trade.

This then , thru consitent litigation ( which has been the case here) provides fodder for legislation

Poor motivation maybe, but the reality is that one needs to take the fall for the call on his/her own 2 feet , as opposed to hiding behind whatever realtor consortium's BS.

[This message has been edited by sparky (edited 12-30-2002).]

If a home inspector is a qualified person per the NEC definition, I would feel comfortable with that inspector's report.



[This message has been edited by Joe Tedesco (edited 12-31-2002).]

The idea of home inspectors is a good one. That said, The problem I have seen is they are not knowledgeable enough to do the job.
They are expected to know all the trades and make a judgement based on that knowledge.
Their knowledge at best is basic and there reports are basic however, the customer who is the buyer in alot of cases is taking their word as fact, that the property they are about to invest in is safe.
The problem arises when after the closing, the New Owner, starts to realize that all is not well with thier home and the repair bills start to pile up just to keep the home safe. A common complaint is , well the inspector said that such and such was fine and not to worry about, here it is 6 months after we bought this place and things are not all right.
So who is accountable, the buyer, the agent who sold the house or the inspector.
So how do we come together ? A special course for Home-Inspectors, how long would that be 30 days ,6 months. Just as an example we scramble every NEC cycle trying to keep up with all the changes. These last two cycles sections have been renumbered and alot of them moved with indices in the back to use as a road map. The HVAC, Plumbing, and the Carpenters have codes too plus the Local building codes which each city or county.
I dont believe On The Job training is anyway for a home inspector to learn, because there are innocent people in the middle getting hurt because of a lack of basic knowledge.
The only way would be some type of comprehensive course. and that is just a guess. Now they have classes sponsered by people who virtually give out the answers for a price. This is not the way to go either.
The last option would be for the trades to teach them and this sounds like an idea or have a basic checklist that limits the scope of the inspection and the buyer could be still paying twice.
We are responsible for the work we do, we have to be Bonded, insured, licensed and registered, more paper than required for a thoroughbred race-horse.
There are options out there and they have to be a better alternative than the present system.

WOC

unless one can master all trades, how can he/she be an expert home inspector ? if you need your wiring checked , call a licensed ,qualified electrician, and so on for plumbing, mech, and building... call the experts for each trade.

Take a look at what Canada has done. Go to parkway@reach.net and look for the Occupational Standards of the Professional Home/ Property Inspector and the Common Core Competencies, www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/Research for the Canadian Home Inspectors & Building Officials Initiative. It makes some interesting reading.
Bob

mj,

No doubt that having an Expert from each Trade thoroughly inspect would be best, but what would that cost, and who would pay it? Given that, (mistakes aside) shouldn't something be better than nothing?

Bill

I found some interesting information over at the ASHI website including: Standards of Practice and State Regulations . There are links to more on the left side of the page like Code of Ethics, FAQs, Glossary.

Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Addiss (edited 12-30-2002).]

I've been hired Joe, due to HI's missing and/or mis-interpeting the following here (my bold)


7. ELECTRICAL SYSTEM
7.1 The inspector shall:

inspect :
the service drop.
the service entrance conductors, cables, and raceways.
the service equipment and main disconnects.
the service grounding.
the interior components of service panels and sub panels.
the conductors.
the overcurrent protection devices.
a representative number of installed lighting fixtures, switches, and receptacles.
the ground fault circuit interrupters.
describe:
the amperage and voltage rating of the service.
the location of main disconnect(s) and sub panels.
the wiring methods.
report:
on the presence of solid conductor aluminum branch circuit wiring.
on the absence of smoke detectors.

The way I look at it is, if I'm under a house and notice a crack in a floor joist, not being a structural expert, do I keep my mouth shut, or do I tell the owner and let a structural expert come out and tell the owner that this guy should mind his own business.

Or possibly be given a pat on the back for bringing up something that could be a problem.

I think the HI is providing a true service, and if done humbly and not with the matter of factness that he is an expert in all areas, he or she should not be damned for suggesting a pro look at it.

Just MHO

Roger

Bill:
I have to add this, and didn't want to lenghten my prior post.
My daughter purchased a house approx 3 yrs ago, and yes, she had a Home Inspection. The HI was a referal from my daughters realtor. Yes, I was there at the same time, kept to myself, and observed mainly. The HI was exceptionally thorough, and was basically knowledgeable in the trades. I gave him a "b" for the electric end. He checked the panel, service, receptacles, etc.
His report was factual on all accounts, and I would reccommend him to anyone.

I purchased another house 1-1/2 yrs ago, and also had a HI. Couldn't get the guy mentioned above, got a referal from him in the area I bought. Same opinion of this guys "work" Fees were the same, and the "termite guys" that accompanied them were pros also.

I'M NOT GOING TO "HORROR STORY" YOUR THREAD. If anyone wants the story about a "HI" that really screwed up electrically, e-mail me & I'll write it out real quick.

John

Bill & Gentlemen:
Are we, including myself "missing something"?

Short & sweet....
An existing house, that has no dangerous visable conditions, and is structuraly "sound", should "pass" a HI, Right?

Therefore, knowledge of the current "codes" is not a mandatory requirement to inspect a home, Agree??

Am I correct that we, as inspectors, and contractors, cannot "make" a person "update" there electrical system if it is "safe" and no work is being done???

I really can't find the words to express what I'm trying to type.....
If a HI looks for obvious "flaws", is that enough?
(THe roof is in need of replacement; the crawl space has signs of water damage; there are two cracked roof joists visable in the attic; you should consider a GFI in the bathroom; etc., etc.)

I'll go away now...
John

Wow, alot of people really don't like the home inspectors! Here in Ga. it is not required that a home has a inspection before selling it ( with the exception of new construction).
I deal with very many home inspectors. And yes some don't know as much as I think they should. But on the other side of the coin, they do catch alot of problems in an old house. Also, every home inspector that I have run across always leaves this at the bottom of thier electrical notes..." Have home checked for other violations by a Lic. electrician".
I do find other problems in some of the houses I work in, but I seem to find that the main problems have already been found by the home inspector. Another way to look at this is that even the AHJ sometimes miss problems on the houses they inspect. It's only human!
I believe that they do a pretty good job ( at least most of them). So a big ATTA-BOY for the inspectors.
By the way, if we all were perfect, there would never be a need for inspections at all!

GEC-1,
i would'nt say that i flat out dislike HI's, no......more like i have to live with them and work with them.

that is my only option, so i'll make the most of the situation with as much discretion as possible.....

My 2 cents would be that there are good HI and bad ones. As is with all contractors and inspectors. I once was called out after a HI said that there was AL wire in the house. It turned out that it was old RHH service cable that was copper, but looked gray from oxidation, and the HI thought that it was AL. By the way, Joe, didn't you teach a course or two to HI people?

Harold

GEC,

Actually I thought more of the responses were positive rather than negative.

John,

Yes, I wanted to try to keep out horror stories because they prove nothing and only cloud the issue here. There are plenty of good people trying to do a good job and have gone through Training & Licensing etc. and we should try to work with them instead of against them. BTW, the ASHI requirement is for 20 hrs. of Continuing Ed. per year. Not for nothing, but in 20 years of being a Master Electrician I have not been required to have any continuing education.

>>
Short & sweet....
An existing house, that has no dangerous visable conditions, and is structuraly "sound", should "pass" a HI, Right?

Therefore, knowledge of the current "codes" is not a mandatory requirement to inspect a home, Agree??
<<

From the ASHI website: >>
Am I correct that we, as inspectors, and contractors, cannot "make" a person "update" there electrical system if it is "safe" and no work is being done???

I really can't find the words to express what I'm trying to type.....
If a HI looks for obvious "flaws", is that enough?
(THe roof is in need of replacement; the crawl space has signs of water damage; there are two cracked roof joists visable in the attic; you should consider a GFI in the bathroom; etc., etc.)
<<

I think that it is supposed to be almost like taking an inventory, documenting what the house "contains" in terms of types of materials and components and a description of their general condition. It is basically a visual inspection/reporting of "readily accessible" things and not meant to be an in-depth evaluation of anything.

Bill

John,
I found this info on the ASHI site under State Regulations:

Bill
I agree 100% that there are more positive responses. yet the negative responses are asking more of a HI than they are really hired to do. As you stated, they are here to inspect the house. Knowing the local codes is a plus, but not a requirement. I am glad that there is someone to find potential problems for the homebuyers. And if they make a mistake ( at least on the electrical part of the inspection) I just explain to the realator what the code says and they make the decision of wether to repair the problem he listed, or forgot to list.
I had an HI inspect a house that had a fuse panel in it. He put on the report that the panel had to be replaced. I explained that the panel did not have to be replaced, but that I would recommend it. The seller did not want the panel replaced, but the buyer called me back later to replace it after they had moved in. They said that they used me because they felt I was honest by not trying to sell them a panel change out. Since then, I have done several houses for that buyer. Funny how not trying to push someone into doing something, gets you more work that you ever thought possible. Honesty is still the best policy!

GEC,

I agree, a little Honesty can go a long way. Home Inspection is relatively new in many areas and as yet may have little or no regulation there. From what I see, the Home Inspection industry is trying to get regulations passed and establish or raise its' level of professionalism everywhere. It will take time though. I think it is something that is likely to become more and more commonplace and we should be looking for ways that we can 'fit' together.

Basically I'm venting here because it just bugs me (a lot) when I see a Home Inspector get dumped on (not here) for asking a question that will help him do his job better. Why does he always get told about the guy that someone knows? It's not right.

(Someone keeps leaving that soapbox here, sorry)

Bill

Oops!,
I guess i need to strap that S-Box to my A** where i can find it!

In my locale' i would more than welcome any mandate requiring an HI to view new construction.

I feel we have some real bad news here, and could use any third party's unbiased opinion.

I'm not talking little nit picky stuff either, a broader assessment would be fine and save much ado....

The fact is if your a tradesman, and around other trades all the time, when something looks odd to you..... it probably is.



[This message has been edited by sparky (edited 12-31-2002).]

Bill:
First, I was not aware of the requirements that you found, and I thank you for the link and info.

Second, It appears that I have to "eat crow", for not knowing this firsthand.
(Salt, Pepper & catsup please)

Third, Harold did you know about this???

My NJ Contractors License comes from:
NJ Dept of Consumer Affairs. (DCA)

My NJ Electrical Inspectors License comes from:
NJ Dept of Community Affairs (DCA)

WE utilize the NJ Uniform Construction Code
(Blue Book) 5:23 et al as the basis for Construction Code enforcement rules, regs, and adopted National Codes, with amendments.

And now, I have to remember Title 45, Chapter 8. It looks like that comes from the Board of Professional Engineers and Land Surveyors, Consumer Affairs, Dept of Law & Public Safety.

Boy, I would think if it's part of the "Building Codes", it should be under the UCC, but I'm only an EC & AHJ

HAROLD HELP, WHAT'CA THINK OF THIS???

THANKS AGAIN BILL.
John

Bill,
Ditto!

Roger

John,

ASHI has a 23 page PDF file outlining their position on the regulation of Home Inspectors. I haven't gotten through all of it yet, but it looks like they are trying to do the right thing.
>> ASHI Position Statement on Regulation of Home Inspectors

I don't mean to make a big deal of this, but I just think that the people in this (HI) occupation that are trying to do better might deserve a break from people sometimes. It's not their fault that their industry is largely unregulated in some areas.

I'm done (I think)

Bill

Bill,
Need to be careful with the ASHI statement. ASHI refuses to work with other HI Associations in regulating the industry. They want it their way only. They are one of the main reasons (along with several other associations) that regulating of HI's is in such a dissaray. There is a lot of good in the position paper and I strongly believe that there does need to be licensing along the lines of how a sparky gets licensed, but by their requirements an ICC certified building inspector who is state licensed as an electrician could not do home inspections. I was even informed by one ASHI inspector that their Standards of Practice and the National Home Inspector's Exam was based on construction practices and had nothing to do with the UBC, ICC codes or the NEC. The different HI associations appear to be more interested in marking out their territory than producing a competent respectable industry. They (the different associations) also have a Code of Ethics that IMO seem to be lip service. I've seen where they give gifts to realtors (posted on the internet, for one). In PA two associations got together and started a state association with the realtors that had all the appearance of trying to put a third association out of business. One ASHI Inspector here in WA and some non-ASHI inspectors (to include me, I'm an independent) tried to work together and resolve the issue here. The ASHI inspector was all but run out of town on a rail by his association.

The best resolution I've seen is what the Canadian Association of Home Inspectors did in conjunction with their building officials. They established a realistic occupastional and performance standards to include core requirements of the job.

Lots of BS and politics involved on all sides.

Bob

Bob,

I've got to admit to being pretty ignorant of politics and political-type things, and didn't mean for anything to sound like an endorsement. I just wanted to point out that I think that the HI industry as a whole is trying to raise its' level of professionalism in all areas and do want Testing, Licensing and Continuing Education.

Bill

Harold


Yes, in fact we first met at a seminar that I was presenting to home inspector's back in 1991?

John,

I have been doing electrical work in NJ since 1975 and I wasn't aware of NJ issuing HI licenses. As I always say, anyone who thinks they "know-it-all" really doesn't. I feel that I have to learn something new all the time. Otherwise, I am not doing my job correctly. There is a web page that NJ has for anyone with a state lic.. It is under construction as I post this so I can't check it out. I did know that some HI took courses, as Joe said, I met him here in NJ a while back when he was teaching a course to some HI's. I believe that they more they know the better it is for the homeowner too.

John,

Here is the website for anyone licensed in NJ.
http://www.state.nj.us/lps/ca/director.htm

Did you also know that now it is a fourth degree criminal offense to represent yourself as an electrical contractor? That law was passed to protect homeowners from unlicensed electrical contractors. I guess we might have to start carrying around some "heat" in order to protect our people from bad contractors.

The Crusading Caper

Harold,

Now that was funny..
Need some help? what can I do?




Bill