Click here to go to an online copy of my latest proposal for a big job.

It's fairly important that I bid high enough for profit and low enough to get the job... There's ten years of work at stake here.

Any and all help and advice is greatly appreciated!

-Virgil

Virgil:
I'll read it more thoroughly later tonite or tommorrow, but it looks pretty good for most part.

The part regarding construction delays may be a door that you don't want to open. If you get delayed on the rough, and the insulator & sheetrocker have to reschedule...do you have to pay them???

Is the lawyer that was at ECN still around???

Later
John

One thing that I would add is the date of the latest revisions on the drawings. It would tie things up a little better. Good luck.
Scott

Virgil,
i'm drawing a blank on one item here, you are quoting a fixed price right?, then stating that you are billing out T&M

why not agree to % of job completion against the total quote?

I know the big guys work on percentages of work done after inspection of the GC, clerks, engineers or whoever happens to be involved. Then payments are made at meetings according to your records and the records kept by the jobs eng clerks etcc. They ask you particular portions of the job, rough part then break it down to sections, same with finish. Not sure if this helps at all. What Hotline said about revisions is a very good point, I've held plans in my hand and was not told that those were the old ones. Man does that add up. Checking your proposal against the dated plans at that time, absolutely, then if changed you have leverage for extras depending on the extents.

I think you have a damned good proposal, looks like it's from a lawyers office.

[This message has been edited by Wirenuttt (edited 12-19-2002).]

Virgil, I don't think I understand the part in the National and local codes part, about not being responsible for other contractors.
If you are talking about other electrical subcontractors under you, it seems that you would have to responsible to see that it is right since you are the one responsible for the job. Then you could settle up with the subcontracter separately( in other words, you and him would have to have a separate contract stating His work would be according to Code. Also are the ceiling in the living room and foyer real high ceilings? That will take extra time and maybe scaffolding if so.
To me, the price seems a little high, but maybe your rates and competition are not as bad as it is in my area. I did a house a little similar a while back, and I didn't make as much as I should have,( my price should have been probably around $7500 ), but it was less, I believe around $5700 or thereabouts. I had approximately 3000 sq. ft. of heated space, with 17ft. ceilings in the living room area, all #12 wire, a septic tank pump system, around 25 recess cans, 4 or 5 ceiling fans and about all the rest that you stated, plus I had to travel about an hour to the job site every day.... Yea, I know, I really took it too cheap, but I was desperate. But I'm sure there's more to yours than what we see.... Hope you get the job..I've been there, done that... Steve.....

Proposal looks pretty good. A little "wordy" but this may be a good thing. Who drew the plans? Is this a working drawing? A couple thigs I noticed. No three way switch for the foyer or living room. Looks like it might be needed. Gfci recepts on front and back porch. Accesible from grade level? Inspectors here interpret that to mean standing on the ground and accessing the receptacle. Kitchen recessed lights not laid out very well. The row of three towards the stove will mainly light the floor. These should be pushed closer to the cabinets so you will not be standing in your own shadow when working at the counter. Otherwise things look pretty good.

Over all, I'd say it looks good, but too wordy and technical. My contractors pay nothing down, 60%-70%(depending on size and type) after rough-in and the ballance upon completion. Also we are expected to provide all cans, trims, and bulbs. Most of my builders are on handshake deals, but I only do work with trusted contractors, so for me the contract is usually not required. Legally the handshake deal will hold up if you had to go to court.

Very nice there.....looks alot like the one from Mike Holt? I would put more detail in the materials you are providing. A shifty GC could skew it in his direction and have you providing the dishwasher, disposal, air handlers etc. Also could try to play games with types of cans, switches, and plugs, etc. since they are not specified. Trying to get you to use low voltage or decora. Had one GC try it and am very detailed about what they are getting and what they are not.

My power was just restored after an outage due to who-knows-what... Raining a little... Could be related. Anyway...

John (Hotline1),
They didn't give a written schedule last time, and it buys me lots of room if they try to pull a "you're-taking-too-long" thing on me without one... It will actually be in my favor. A small gamble, but I could word it more carefully...

Scotts, good point! I will do just that!

Everyone, the plans I were given are just floor plans, no electrical (I was a little miffed, but didn't say anything). I spent a day drawing out the floor plan, designing an electrical plan (All mistakes are mine!) and doing the take-off and proposal. My worst fears are not getting the job and having them use my info for free!

Sparky,
Wirenuttt has the idea here, they have me bill at T&M until (unless?) things look slim at the end. I had billed for the whole amount by piecemeal the last time and was paid in full before being completely finished, so no worries here.

Wirenuttt, yup, similar circumstances here.

sparkync,
I guess I could word it more carefully. I should be responsible for my subs, but not if the drywallers zip my wires, or if the plumbers put the water heater in front of my panel, etc.
Fortunately, I've wired one already that was similar to this one and ended up just less than $12K with changes. They said my original bid of $10.2K was lowball, but after changes, I was on the high side.
I didn't do the phones or TV cables at all, so that would add a little bit, and $11.5K is my shoot-from-the-hip guess-and-hope guestimated hypothesized and ciphered figure.
It's kinda like a crap shoot sometimes.
BTW, my other jobs in this area are closer, if not less, than the prices in your examples.

E-Scott,
I drew the plans from a floor plan and working knowledge of what was in two other cottages. And I've put in 10 3-ways as opposed to the lowly 4 in the last cottage (which actually had an electrical plan).
The can-lights were put there hastily, and are there more for a "head-count" than actual location. I'm not sure if they even want cans in there at all, could be two of three surface mounts like the one cottage...
There will be UC lights, but I agree that the cans are too far away from the counters.
The GFCIs are on porches, none of which are ground level. I didn't provide a basement / foundation plan online, I'll see if I can get one up tomorrow. The mechanical room, and several GFCIs are inside and out on those plans, and are accounted for on the Take-off lists with the proposal.

E-Eagle,
With experience from the last job here, they provide recessed cans, trims and bulbs as well as recessed fans. Their call.
A deposit (or wording to provide for one) was in part of the 29 page contract they gave me on the last cottage, so heck, may as well take advantage of it.

kinetic,
Yup, from Mike's template. With much revision from (bad) experiences. I actually do provide a materials list down to the wirenuts and screws complete with catalog numbers, but couldn't figure out how to get it online in a speadsheet type format without it taking too much of my time and patience. It looked really messy in regular ASCII.

Thanks for all the help! I'll edit it later and let you know of the changes!

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 12-20-2002).]

Virgil:
For what it's worth, I have the same feelings that you do regarding "the plans"
If it's a contractor or client that I don't know, it's simple...they do not get the plans! I give them a verbal description, and if the job is a "go" then the plans are available.

Fortunatly, most of my work is for regular clients, and "no bid". I do budget numbers, with design, get input from the involved "people", and work up specs. You may call it design/build or ???

I have one now thzt I'll be working on for a bit...50KSF, retail and/or office; possible 68 meters. Needs "new" everything. I have pics of the "old" service, just have to figure out how to get them into ECN. (I'm not "good" at that part of the 'puter.
John

Virgil,

As far as someone using your plans goes...

When I did design work I would go over the drawing with the customer in detail.

If they wanted a copy of the plans I would charge them for what ever time I thought I had in the design and then if I got the job that fee would be taken off of the price of the job.

If I didn't get the job I at least got paid for the plans.

I've revised the Proposal and added the materials list. Sorry about the hard-to-read format.

Whatcha think?

Thanks!

-Virgil

virgil ---

My reading of the proposal is that you provide 2 heat pumps and several other items I suspect you do not want ot include.

I am suspicious of anyone who lists electrical tape and 20' lengths of wire on a bid for a house. This makes the contract way too long.

I would have listed groups of items rather than individual items. I.e. ---

200 amp SquareD breaker box with breakers for 32 circuits) Who knows if the specific items will be available or not when you do the work.

By mistake I purchased the wrong brand of recessed lights for my garage - 28 cans were cheap but the 28 covers @$15 were a bit much compared to other brands. I hope you specify the brand of recessed lights. It might be nice to specify the brands of any items where different brands vary in price.

(I think your electrical bid is too high for my location. But with the 2 heat pumps and other items it might be ok.)

George,

I'll include the branch wiring for the heatpumps, but not the units themselves. I'll make sure that is more clear.

Just trying to protect myself on the precise take-offs. Didn't realize it could be considered a bad thing.

Don't have to worry about the recessed cans materials. They provide them all. I just hang 'em.

The price is high. Quite literally three times what I would get to wire a similar house off of the hotel grounds. The price is based upon the figures that they accepted on the last bid. Everyone there says "stick it to 'em" and they seem to be willing to pay for some quality. Heck, at $11,500 it's still less than 1.5% of the value of the house! I want my piece of the pie, and if I offer to do it for less, they will always make me do it for less.

I can't afford to screw this up.

Besides, they "strongly suggest" for me to retire my truck. (I guess it's an eyesore...)




Here's links to the basement plan.

Link 1

Link 2

Here's the link to a news report on this job:

Beckley Register-Herald

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 12-21-2002).]

To me this has gone way overboard. You are giving to much info and to much ammo for someone to complain about something. IE "well you only installed 36 receptacles not 42, we'll expect to see a credit" or "I saw the switches and they only cost $.47 not$.69". If it were me (and it's not) I might loosen up a little on the legal mumbo jumbo and I would certainly remove the materials list. What I do and have found to be effective is to give a price with everything included and then break it down to labor and materials. Thats it. If they want more they will ask and i do what i can to accomodate. I have found when people see the actual costs of things ($75.00 low voltage dimmers) they are more likely to not want them, less money for me. Group it all together as much as possible and it is easier to sell the whole package based on the total price. Also you are spending a TON of time on this what if you don't get the job. You are out alot of money you can't recoup. I'll give price oevr the phone, if they ACCEPT it they get it in writing if they are shopping around I am not laying out the job for the next guy. I am one person and my time is very valuable and very limited. When I am doin paperwork and estimates no work is getting done and no money is being generated. Speking of being too wordy

Virgil, I agree with Electricman Scott: If you get to detailed, they may think you're to picky and get someone else for the job. If I have to give them a few more switches or recpt., it is worth it to get the job. Switches and receptacles are not that expensive.. Steve

Virgil ---

Hope you get the job.

Hope you make a lot.

OK, I've cut it down a bit, any better?





(Just kidding)

In seriousness, I know of no other way to bid precisely without doing complete take-offs. And when I've already done the work, I may as well protect myself with the info.

What if they say they want spec grade Decoras (if they make such a thing) and Claro wall plates!?!?! Then I'm screwed. With my materials list, it is clear exactly what I'm bidding for.

What if they want all splices splitbolted? No splitbolts on the materials list... Change order.

What if they want to change the location of the panel which would add a disco? That be almost $300 I would lose if I didn't spell it out.

Should I not spell it out? How else do I define what I'm bidding for?

Please, I really need to know.



I just feel it protects me.

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 12-21-2002).]

Virgil,
I have received many bids in my former life as a facility guy. I see no problem with spelling out what you are going to do and the materials. Don't go too far and tell them what brand of wirenuts you are using. I have received bids similar to your second one. When comparing to the spelled out bids guess which one went into the can.

When I would review bids I needed the detail to make sure that all of the bids are apples to apples. Not apples to oranges.

Yuo have already spent the time so might as well use it. If not then you have wasted all of that time.

Good luck.
Scott

That one is perfect! I think the more you think about it you will come up with an endless parade of questions and what if's. I guess the bottom line is you must be comfortable with what you submit and hope you don't waste alot of time on something that turns out to be a wild goose chase.

Well, I did weed down the details a little and submitted it today. Changed the plans to show only one island receptacle and moved the cans (hihats) in the kitchen closer to the counters.

<cut to the chase>

They accepted the bid, all $11.5K of it, and will review the plans after Christmas to make any changes necessary. Most likely, I over-engineered and they will want fewer cans and three-ways, but we'll find out.

His only question was "No surprises?"

I assured him, no surprises, all change-orders in the last cottage were assumed in this one (HVAC, Smokes, Cable-TV, Phones, Water Heater {on-demand}, and photo-cell).

"Looks good" he said, shook my hand, and said "Have a Merry Christmas" and walked out the office door while dialing his cellphone.

Nothings signed yet, but it all looks good so far.

<homer simpson>
Woohoo!
</homer simpson>



Thanks for all the help and good advice!

-Virgil

Good for you Virgil !

I agree with E-Scott, you need to be comforatble on the paperwork end.

Precise #'s call for specifics.

The only other way i see things done is via 'comparitables', per the GC's, which means just what it implies....they'll show you the last project{s} they've done and say it cost $$$ (sub's all lined up)

Congradulations, Virgil Sounds like you got it. Hope the Signatures come soon... Makes me feel good when someone gets a good break...Hope you have many more in the future
Steve.....

Ok we got the bid. Where do we report for duty?

I'll git the donuts......

and I'll bring the coffee.

hot and strong

TW

Don't get in a big hurry, they just broke ground for it last week.

And the official name of it is "Fairway 13"

I hope it's a "lucky 13"...