Found this thread at the Garage Journal forum....

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50872&showall=1

I do agree that denying homeowner permits will only encourage unpermitted activity.

This is the kind of b.s. which is making me want to get out of this stupid trade..electricians do it to ourselves...everything about "our" code the nec is dedicated to idiot proofing things ...I'm completely disgusted with the common misconception that all you need to know is white to white etc...I firmly believe that the box stores and supply houses should not be in the business of selling service equiptment to homeowners. I remember going into a hvac supplier and buying a contactor for a condension unit, they asked for my license wouldn't sell the parts to homeowners go figure...they did sell me the part with my electrical license however.. too often i see people shopping in the box store taking advice from some kid right outa high school. on a side rant why when you bring your car to a mechanic will people just cough up whatever they say? beacuse they have you by the short curlies? because they don't slice each others throats to do the work, for free.. just to keep "busy" I'm at an all time high as far as frustaration goes with this trade..and the funny part is I'm completely swamped at my job.

Snivelling? Consider it a reminder of the challenges we face. Let's look at some of the comments:

"Instead this requirement screams "If you were thinking about doing it yourself, don't let anyone know."
That's a fair statement. Every additional bit of effort, every hoop that the law-abiding have to jump through, give you a bit more incentive to cut corners. If there's a requirement, the reason for it must be plain to all, at a distance. Think about that the next time someone proposes a code change.

"a simple job of upgrading my service panel"
When we discuss service changes with customers, we need to get the point across that there's a lot more involved than 'swapping out the panel.' The customer has to appreciate that this is a job that's probably more than he wants to do himself.

"(very simple 30ft run costs about $300)." A recent job I priced was a 'simple' addition of 4-way switches to a trio of very accessible 3-way circuits. My materials alone would be in the $100- $120 range. You can bet the job would also take a good 4 hours, plus an hour at either end for set-up and clean-up. Can anyone run a business on $50/hr? Thos of us with businesses simply MUST stop hiding all our financials, or we'll never turn around this attitude that the customer doesn't pay when they try to 'punish' business.

"If you got a decent SAT score you can most likely pass the test." This is one of my pet peeves. The test is the EASY part. Folks have got to learn that there's a reason it's called a SKILLED trade. The 'real' test comes every day, where a slip of the drill and you've just PO'd the customer, and bought them a new marble counter.

"Here you must be an indentured slave ...." Again, we have got to start addressing the common perception - even among apprentices - that the apprenticeship period is nothing more than institutionalized harrassment. I probably speak for us all, when I say that in my first few years in the trade I did as much learning, every day, as anyone sitting in a college classroom. Indeed, I had no idea that there was that much to learn - and not just about 'electricity' either!

"I have a BSEE ..." And what has that to do with anything? Again, there this is this presumption that nearly anyone can do our work. The guy's belief that replacing a light switch was all there was to electric work only shows his ignorance.

"I can give you a list an arm long of things that a screwy about the codes." Sure he can .... I'll bet he has never even seen a code book. Where do folks learn to ridicule those things of which they are ignorant?

Thanks, Norcal, for the wake-up call.

It just drives the work underground, or needed work does not get done at all.

And not selling supplies immediately leads to people wiring their homes with cut off extension cords, scotch tape and scrounged materials.

I'm not really sure I like the Austrian system where normal people aren't allowed to do anything beyond replacing a light bulb but licensed electrician are not checked upon at all unless there is a fire or someone is electrocuted.

If you have a permit system and inspections, there is a very thin line concerning repair or upgrade work: how far do you require existing conditions to be fixed? If someone gets a service replacement, do you consider this a major change and force him to ground all his old ungrounded circuits, add all receptacles required by current code?

Or (ypical Austrian situation, because here the utility company gets involved and does inspect the work) if someone has a 1970s meter feed without a ground wire (because grounding was still commonly done via the water pipes back then), do you force him to get a new service for something like $2500?
Don't get me wrong, such clauses are often the only way to get people to fix existing hazards that would have gone unnoticed otherwise, but it's a very very thin line to where such requirements make people think: "Then better do nothing at all!".

We can preach 'permits/inspections' around the clock....and there always will be work done without permits/inspections. From 'finishing the basement', to..."Sir, I only installed the new 200 amp panel, it was easy with the old #6 from the meter". Or, 'yes I'm doing the work myself, my friend is an electrician, he's helping'

Tex:

"If you have a permit system and inspections, there is a very thin line concerning repair or upgrade work: how far do you require existing conditions to be fixed? If someone gets a service replacement, do you consider this a major change and force him to ground all his old ungrounded circuits, add all receptacles required by current code?"

We here in NJ have a 'Rehab' code as part of the NJ UCC. It's involved to get into here, but to answer your question 'Jersey style'

A service upgrade is considered minor work, and falls into rehab. Updating the grounds (GEC's) and bonding the water piping (if metal) is all that is required. AFCI's are not required. We (AHJ's) cannot require any additional work, other than any visable life safety items we may trip over while at site.

I have really wondered about this myself quite a bit since I did do a pretty big renovation last year as "owner/builder" and I built a pool a few years ago. Having a wife in the building business helped a lot and I had excellent access to the necessary trades but the permit process was daunting on the addition. The pool, not so hard.
I really wondered at the time if the building department wouldn't have a profit center in charging double or more for owner/builder permits and then offering some extra guidance.
In my case I would have paid double, just to get my permit without having to go back there 7 times.
If I had some confusion in the inspection process it would have been nice to have an inspector who knew I paid extra so he could explain some things to me. Fortunately that never came up. Also an inspector looking at homeowner work should be spending more time there.
I do have some experience with that since in my state job I did inspect a lot of work done by the maintenance department, inmates or park rangers. I took my time and inspected a lot more than your typical muni guy would, looking at a licensed guy's work.

I know in a perfect world everyone would hire licensed trades for everything but as long as Home Depot and Lowes are out there and we have TV shows telling people how easy these things are we will have DIY installers.
I think there should be some way to help them do it safely.

BTW has anyone ever seen that mythical electrician (or other trade) who pulls your permits and then comes back to check your work before the final
I always hear about that on DIY BBs and I always think it is up there with the tooth fairy, the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus. To start with, it is illegal in Florida.
It is far more likely that a homeowner would pull the permit and get a trunk slammer to do the work.

Greg:
We are prohibited by law to do any 'design' for anyone; only code compliance

As to time spent, yes some HO jobs are nightmares, but that's my job to inspect, if it's one trip or ten trips.

As to the 'paperhangers'....it's amazing how they don't know the job, much less that it is code compliant. Phone conversations allude to not having a clue where the jobsite is!

Much the same in Australia, although to my knowledge a homeowner has never got into trouble for doing their own wiring. There has been some jumping up and down by some in the trade to ban the sale of fittings to the general public. They regurgitate the same old story of people wiring up power points with bell wire as justification.
Rather, there should be some education as how to do things correctly instead of keeping wiring standards and practices as part of some kind of secret society.
Prohibiting sale of wiring accessories will simply cause people to be more creative; and not necessarily in a safe way. Not to mention the black market and sale of second hand fittings.

I've never met a handy man who doesn't say that he does good wiring, but I've seen lots of bad wiring. The first sign that someone does bad wiring seems to be his claim that he does good wiring. The second sign is that he finds the worst electrician to compare his work to. I'd be more impressed if they found better role models.

Things used to be a lot more controlled in the US until the mega home stores opened. You could always get NM cable, boxes and devices at the hardware store but you were not going to find panels and meter sockets. You also paid full retail in these hardware stores. Now the home store has everything and is also competing on price trying to get trades in there but that makes these jobs look overpriced to the customer who thinks "Hey I can buy a panel full of breakers for $150. How hard can it be to install".
The only real control is the PoCo that wants to see a permit before they will reseal the meter but that can backfire too. You can end up with a homeowner handling live service conductors, a truly frightening thing.

In Massachusetts, they made it illegal for homeowners to perform plumbing installations of any kind. The code enforcement personnel are instructed to write citations for a property owner whenever they see old plumbing fixtures placed out for trash pickup. They even went as far as severely limiting the availability of plumbing hardware at retailers, even the big box stores.

So what is the solution? These people just go across the border to New Hampshire, Vermont or Rhode Island to buy this stuff at the very same big box stores.

Many drugs are illegal to buy, sell, possess or consume, but it has been shown for decades that this cannot be curtailed. How our governments will ever be able to address that issue is beyond me.

I'm in agreement that encouraging proper installations, permitting and inspections is the only way to go. Many people fear the inspector as someone who is their foe. If AHJs focus their energies upon fixing this image, I think that they'll find more of a willingness to be compliant.

Many community college systems offer homeowner-oriented programs to learn basic trade skills. Often, the instructors are contractors themselves. This stands the potential of being a win-win situation because for every student who IS able to do the job themselves, there will likely be one who finds they are over their head before they start their project. My former employer actually picks up quite a bit of work from his students in addition to the beer money he makes for teaching the classes.

Telling someone that they aren't allowed to do something within the confines of their own property will never fly. In this case, the proverbial "you get more flies with honey than you do with vinegar" comes to mind.

Aussie240:
You said..."Rather, there should be some education as how to do things correctly instead of keeping wiring standards and practices as part of some kind of secret society."

There are numerous 'how-to' books available, most in public libraries, including the NEC, although that is not a design tool. We also have 'experts' in some big box stores, and they even do demonstrations regularly. Big box stores cater to HO's and look for 'pro trade' also. Restricting sales of materials to 'trade only' will never happen here.

I teach part time at a County Vo-tech, which offers a 'Basic Wiring' course that HO's could sign-up for, twelve weeks @ 1 nite per wk, $120 cost.

Some HO's do a neat, code compliant install that rivals the 'pro'; note I said some; others are nightmares.

And yes, the creativity of some people still amazes me to no end.

So basically because people could potentially hurt themselves by doing stupid things we should educate them..NO WRONG. when i go to the mechanic i don't sit and watch him work on my brake lines so i can do it myself next time...and if i ever asked him to do that I'm sure it wouldn't go over well. My 4 yrs of night school and on the job training plus keeping up with three states worth of continuing education,etc, etc, etc ...i say hey go change your own panel on your aluminum ladder dummy call me when you're out of the hospital, or have your wife call after they scrape you off the front lawn. I'm tired of having to justify my costs.

Greg:
Without looking hard, our CCO inspector turns up an average of 3 non-permitted services or panel swaps every 2 weeks. Some are by 'forgetful EC's'; some are HO specials; some are 'friends'. I like the 200 amp panel on the old #6 service riser!

EV607797:

Just how successful is the HO ban on doing plumbing?

What we're battling is a dangerous combination of ignorance and arrogance. The very idea that not only can everyone do it, they are also so damn naturally smart that they need not bother learning first, they can figure it out on the fly. These folks aren't going to be reading up on things in the library.

Which brings up another conceit: that you can 'learn' by just reading and watching. If that were true, I'd be playing for the Yankees today. As I said,we have a SKILLED trade. If everyone could do it, we wouldn't be making 3-5x minimum wage.

Do your own brakes? Drive your own ground rod? Guys, that's where our training and tool investment pays off. I WANT the customer to realize that yes, I CAN do somethig better than he.

From what I see from talking to homeowners is they have 2 opinions of inspectors
One, they are just scouts for the tax collector
Two, they are there to make your life miserable and discourage you from doing anything yourself.

Where we are, #1 is really pretty bogus. The tax collector uses satellite photos and on site inspections. They don't really change your taxes for things that you do inside and outside things are quickly found anyway. I always say, the tax appraiser has better records of what I have done around here than I do and until recently, I never got permits.
The tax collector just took my money, they never complained about the lack of a permit.

#2 only seems true because they are really used to dealing with pros who know what to do and know what to expect. The inspector seems to be impatient with homeowners because the homeowner is usually not ready to be inspected when they call. That is why I say, if the building department wants to imporove their image with homeowners, they should spend more time with them and just charge more.
I have to honestly say, in my experience, most muni inspections are very superficial. During the go-go times when I built my pool that was somewhat expected but on my addition there were only 35 RES permits pulled by March of that year when I started. They weren't that busy. I still got 60 second inspections.

In some parts of the USA the 'Kings Castle' laws transend all others, even insurance liability.

This is the Vermont stance, btw. Every day i've been in biz, i've had to sell myself as the ambassador of the N.E.C.

So here's the flipside of the nanny state argument here, because when you ARE in said position, you'll find yourself needing to VALIDATE your opinions

the 'written in blood', or 'it's the code' scare tactics may as well be some druid chat


no law, code, act, or legislation made by the people. for the people truly has legs without majority consent of the people
.....~S~

Greg, I find that a lot of issues that cause the #2 attitude is where the Inspector gets out to a site for an inspection, finds that the HO has done something totally wrong and then the HO wants to argue that "it should be fine...why are you going to make me rip it out and do it again...that's just bogus"??

I find that if you politely ask the AHJ before you start something that you don't understand, many of them will help you out or point you in the right direction. It's a lot nicer for everyone involved to inspect something that's 90% right than something that's 110% wrong.

I had a Contrator in an office renovation make up their own rules and got gigged by the AHJ. His first whine was that "the plans clearly showed it", but that went away very quickly when the AHJ told him that I had stopped by the Village Hall weeks earlier and gone over my design intentions before I ever drew the plans up. A simple 15 minute improptu meeting with the AHJ and his boss prevented this guy from dragging us through the mud for his own mistakes.

I think the root of the problem can be summed up in one word: government. Some of that can be changed, and some is inherent to the process.

The first point is: where else are you going to take your business? It's not as if you have any choice - or any recourse. Just as important, the permit and inspections are thought of as 'required,' which, in this case, means exactly the opposite of 'desired,' 'useful,' or 'valuable.'

Watching private 'home inspectors' at work, they seem to feel a need to poke about everywhere, to give the customer some 'value' for the money. That dynamic isn't present when the city comes.

Let's look at it another way, as contractors: Have you ever heard anyone boast that they 'got a deal' on surgery, or that their lawyer was the cheapest guy in town? Heck, folks insisnt on 'only the best' for the family dog! So why are they so contrary when it comes to their homes?

Good question... I've learned this from a relative who lives in MA. He found out the hard way when he left his old water heater at the curb for pickup. The law is in effect statewide, but I have absolutely no idea how much they are curtailing Harry Homeowner projects.

I have a hard time understanding why homeowner plumbing is more serious than electrical. A fire is a lot more dangerous than a flooded basement.
The only person I have ever heard of around here who got busted for "no permit" was a neighbor who built a shed his neighbor thought was ugly. They made him either come up with engineering or tear it down. He tore it down but he left the pile of lumber in his yard for a year right next to the guy's yard who complained.
The whiner moved away.

Here in Illinois the requirement for plumbing is that it must be done by a state-certified plumber.

The justification is that 'Plumbing' covers both pipes containing excrement and those carrying fresh drinking water. They want to make sure that the first never leaks into the second.

Isn't that why we are required to have backflow preventers at the street?

I think that is a red herring. Particularly when you are talking about replacing a faucet or water heater

So Greg, did you put your shed backup after he moved away?

It wasn't me. My shed was here when I got here and grandfathered in. I did "bring it up to code" several years ago but the footprint didn't change.
It is now a bunker, with 150mph rated block construction.

http://gfretwell.com/electrical/brick_shed_house.jpg

Greg,
I can see what you mean about replacing a tap or a hot water cylinder.
Pretty much, over here people can do thier own plumbing, bar the sewerage piping work, you have to be a licenced craftsman plumber to even lay these pipes.
There have been quite a few home-owners (and building companies) hauled before the courts over here and fined quite a few thousand dollars.

And rightfully so I say, you can't afford to have idiots installing something as critical as sewerage piping.
A wrong connection or a badly glued joint could conceivably make a lot of people sick, a leaking joint could go un-noticed for years, while it fills the ground below it (and the ground-water) with foul water.

Trumpy, nail on the head- it's the ground water! Human sewage contains specific-to-human bacteria and viruses. Analysis can tell the difference between, for instance, beef, pigs, chickens, kangaroos [hat tip to Reno!] & people. Leaks into the surface soil spread as much as 30 yards and can be detected by identifiable pathogenic bacteria counts. That's why a well should be at least 40 yards from any sewerage pipe. If a sewage leak enters the underground aquifers in your area, [ and these can be very close to the surface in some places], then the spread of bugs could be miles!

Having said that, it's surely overkill to make sweeping laws banning all HO plumbing or electrical work. I suspect that in many cases it's local gummint flexing their tax gathering muscles rather than any altruistic 'safety' motives.

As a local Maire, [the French are more laid back than most in these things], said to me once-

"You built a house on your own land. It fell over. What has that got to do with me!?"

interesting contrast bettween your shed which draws attention vs. my shed which had zero Inspections, Occupancy Permits, or attention at all , by comparisson Libertopia.....

It occurs to me that his beauracratic disparity is a detriment in an of itself via the divide and conqeuor mentality

Again, it wasn't my shed that caused the problem, it was a little "lean to" on the side of a building that the guy just wanted to put a lawn mower and a few garden tools in that got all the attention. The whole thing was 2 sheets of plywood and a half dozen 2x4s.
By the time code enforcement got out here the guy had it painted to match his house and you could barely see it. Unfortunately, once the complain was made, the inspector said his hands were tied. Tear it down or buy a double price permit. The problem is, you need engineering for a shed.
Mine is built in excess of the county supplied masters. (basically the same construction requirements of a house)

i do believe you missed my point Greg

and no, your shed is not the problem....

~S~

I understand about places where it is "no permits, no problem" but I doubt that is what most of the folks here are used to. I know driving around the west you see the sign "building permits required beyond this point" when you drive into town.

Greg:
Some shed. In certain areas up here...that's a dwelling!

I did. Back when I was 17 an electrician sold us everyting we needed, we moved our meter including powering everything up, the electrician came around a few days later, checked everything and sent the report to the PoCo under his own name. That's the only legal way for homeowners to do wiring here.

yeah but, now your one of the flock and know the secret handshake Tex....~S~

i wonder just what the % (permits required) really is

~S~

In Florida it is 100% (state law) for most building but there are plenty of places where enforcement is lax. That would basically be the places where you wouldn't have permits if the state didn't have a law. I imagine permits are just a check written to the county without any real inspections in places like that. In real life that means no permit. Fla statute 102.2(C) exempts nonresidential agricultural buildings so as soon as you get out of town everything is a barn.