I didn't want to threadjack Trumpy's Conduit size thread, so I'll ask here.

Metric or English? Pros and Cons.

International opinions welcome. We all know where you stand, Paul.

Old dog...new tricks? Metric...yuck.

i just can't think metric

I'd hate to see the whole code book change to metric. Sometime it may happen though.

Most of our drawings are coming from the architects in metric up here now. In our 1998 code book our section on explosion-proof changed to something more inline with european equipment, so its almost becoming inevitable. When the big rush was on for the 1998 Calgary Olympics everything was metric try finding replacement parts for this stuff now.

I have a hard time with the idea of calling a suppier, and asking them to send me 500' of #21 emt. Or telling an apprentice to get a bundle of 16 out of the back of the truck.

English, mate,
Doc

WattDoc,
Ask for a bundle of 16, and you'll probably get a tangled handful of fixture wire!

Metric!

I can't see any reason for using the other strange units. How do you answer a simple question like:

"What is the resistance of twenty feet of #14?"

"Oh, that's easy" you go "I'll just look it up in a table" and walk off to find that table.

Had it been in metric the only thing you need to know is the resistivity of copper (0.017 ohm mm2/m)

"What is the resistance of 6 m of 2.0 mm2?"

"Oh, that's easy", I go, "6 times 0.017 over 2.0 is roughly 0.05 ohms"

I'm an engineer and many of our books in class (here in Sweden) were American, using strange units like the British Thermal Unit. In my world heat is measured in Watts, without need for a special unit.

[This message has been edited by C-H (edited 12-11-2002).]

English.

Doc, you wouldn't ask for 500', you'd ask for 166 m of #16.
Or if metric units are seriously adopted you'd probably ask for 150 m of 16mm conduit.
No. it just depends on what you're used to. I'll never ever get 'round to think in feet and inches, I always convert. However, I think metric is more logical and it's according to the decimal system. i guess here in Austria 200 years ago here in Austria no one thought of metric units. Nowadays the only things that still come in inches are plumbing pipes and sometimes lumber. It's not official, but in every shop you still buy 3/4" gas pipe or 1/2" garden hose. But elsewhere? Wires are 0.75, 1, 1.5, 2.5, 4, 6, 10 and more mm2, conduit (PVC only here) is 16, 20, 25, 30, 40, 50 and more mm.
Guess if America should ever adopt metric cable sizes, the typical 15A circuit would be wired with 2.5 mm2.

english most of the metric stuff i see is junk

See what I mean. So, give me 166 meters of 3/4" emt....???...!!!

wv66, amen to the tangled.

,
Doc

Yeah. it would sure make for some confusion.

Almost forgot....I vote for good ole' feet and inches.

Converting the entire US over to the metric system completely is an enormous undertaking, that would likely cost tens of billions of $ that the general public and the gov't doesn't need to spend right now.

[This message has been edited by CTwireman (edited 12-11-2002).]

english........

Metric is by far an easier system to use, IF:
1. you do not do any conversions
2. you are used to it.

Years ago, I did carpentry work in France. I had never done construction work in the US. It was immensely easier to use mm than inches and fractions. Layouts are much smoother in mm as you don't have to divide fractions. When I returned to the states and started working as an electrician, I was constantly frustrated by the archaic system, we use. Now its 25 years later, and I am accustomed to our system. I think the change will be for the next generation. Those who are used to American Standard will fight and struggle with the change. Those who never learn the old system, and only learn metric will do just fine.
"The only constant in life is change."

Her in england we still measure some of our kit in feet n inches and in metric.

our fluorescent fittings (standard battens) come in 2ft 3 ft 4ft 5ft 6ft and 8ft?

cable comes in mm and on 50 or 100 m drums

i still work out some of my measurements in imperial and sometimes in metric, depends how i am feeling !!

Just ask Paul what we are all like over here!

I think its living on an island with nothing but water around you !!!

John H

Although I won't argue that the metric system is probably better than feet and inches, as long as a football field is 100 YARDS long, the US will never go metric.

Metric, it's much easier for measurement.
I don't think you can halt the tide, most of the world uses metric, we have to accept this, like it or not!

I was an engineer for a German company for 14 years and got the hang of the metric system. In my mind a mm was about a 1/16 of an inch and 100 mm was 4 inches. Could never think metric.
I read an article about a test that had questions lik “How many feet in a mile?”, “How many ounces in a cubic inch”, ”How many meters in a kilometer?”, etc.
Something like 2% got the imperial questions all correct and 40% got all the metric questions correct.
The metric system is much better! Conversion between unit to unit is easier, all measurement is in units of ten, etc. but as Electricmanscott said “Old dog...new tricks?”

They considered changing over to meteric 30 years ago when I was in elementary school. They told us then that it would be a very long slow process but eventually we would be converted over. I remember when cars speedometers in the 70's had kilometers written under the standard MPH. Then it seemed like the milk, tonics and booze started to change over, no more qurtz or 5ths, everything in liters. I surmize they took the every day average item and converted those things first to begin acclimation of the process. Now it's just a matter of time.

Have you noticed that we use English, and the English use metric?
Do you think if we went, and threw our metric rulers off in Boston Harbor it would make any difference? Or is this a revolution that we can't win?
A little 1776 humor guys.

Give me ECN, or give me death,
Doc Hancock

[This message has been edited by The Watt Doctor (edited 12-11-2002).]

Watt Doctor;

If i had the choice i would use metric for everything,

but it would be really good in the bar,
`A litre of you finest ale my man` !

it just dont sound right !! in some things you have to have metric but in some other things only imperial will do !!

And we are Imperial are we not. ?

But then we have some of our traders being taken to court because they will not sell they produce in kilo`s only in pounds and ounces !!

a waste of taxpayers cash or what !! but thats another thing al together.

bye for now.

John H

I was involved with metric on a job. It was fiber optic cable written in meters not inches or feet. I had several thousand feet I measured out for 50 some odd runs anywhere between 75' to 900'. Use the greenlee measuring tape wriiten in feet. After all the measurements were descibed on paper where each run goes. The fiber optic was ordered in Dozens of rolls, all in metric. At that moment I didn't know which one was for what. Thank God one of the helpers says, Hey! I have a metric conversion calculator in my truck. The kid saved the day, I didn't know the conversions off the top of my head. By the way just in case anyone was wondering, it was for a multiple complex installing security cameras.

O.K., I've kept quiet long enough....

I have nothing against the metric system as such. Our friends on the Continent such as C-H and Texas Ranger grew up with millimeters, kilograms, kilometers, etc. and I am sure therefore have no trouble visualizing them. I use the metric system in some scientific work, where appropriate. Radio wavelengths have always been measured in meters, for example, but then that's not something tangible that one needs to conceptualize.

But most of us in Britain (like America) grew up using English units. As Sparky said above, I just can't think in metric. I'm forced to convert to work with the metric quantities that have been imposed upon us, but I only do that by mentally converting into English units before I can picture them in my mind. I can make sense of speed limit signs when driving in France, for example, but only with a mental "look-up" table. I see a "50" sign, but it doesn't register in my mind that the speed limit is 50km/h. I see the 50 and my brain says "30 mph."

The metric proponents in the U.K. frequently put forward the case that "Britain is the last remaining major country in the world to cling to Imperial measurements." Well, excuse me! Have these guys not heard of the United States??!!

As John mentioned, what has annoyed people in the U.K. is not so much the merits of which system is better, but rather the Draconian way in which the bureaucrats have forced it upon us, stage by stage.

Packets in grocery stores had to be dual marked, now they say that metric markings must take primary place over English (only as a temporary "derogation" mind you, meaning that in a few more years they'll make it illegal to show English units at all).

All architectural plans submitted for official approval must be in metric now, or the council will just reject them. Pop quiz: Is a 6096 x 5486mm room big or small? Tricky isn't it? Now if I'd said 20 x 18 feet, you'd all picture it instantly.

Gas pumps changed over to liters a few years ago by law, forcing many small owners who just could not afford the cost of replacements out of business. Shop-keepers have been faced with changing all their scales for metric -- Those who have refused have been dragged through the courts and now actually have a criminal record for the "crime" of selling a pound of fruit. The fact that the majority of people ask for their wares in English units doesn't seem to bother the police-state Big-Brother officials who are hellbent on getting their way.

The list goes on and on.

By the way, France has been officially metric for over 200 years, and I'm sure that most Frenchmen can visualize metric quantities, but they still use pre-metric measures. Go to any French market and you'll find people buying goods by the livre (albeit a slightly adjusted pound of 500g to make conversion easier). They still measure plumbing fittings in pousses (inches) as well! The only difference is that their government doesn't try to turn people into criminals for using the units they grew up with.

O.K., rant over. I'll leave you with this reference:

http://www.footrule.org/Navigation.htm




[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 12-12-2002).]

quite the site Paul, i had no idea......


btw~
does anyone else see the irony in debating our British counterparts here, and defending the English system??

Many Brits feel like Paul and I understand why. The British government must work hard to enfore every new rule in a as destructive way as possible. Other countries are a bit more flexible.

I have no problem visualizing neither meter nor foot, although I rarely need to do so. Using the British system with the metric as a mental base is easy. Conversion is done in a split second. It must be a lot harder to go the other way.


You need to think a bit more nationalistic too understand this: Compared to the British Empire the US is not a major country...


I wouldn't care if it wasn't for the EU and the other European countries being blamed for it.


As I said: Enforcing rules in the most destructive way possible...


Big!

How true! The EU commissioners say "jump" and our bureaucrats and puppets in government reply "Certainly, how high?" If the French government doesn't like an EU directive, on the other hand, they just say "Non" and ignore it. I understand that France has had more warnings issued by the EU commission for failure to comply with directives than any other member country.

Not much of the old British Empire left -- All the bits of it that were worth living in have become independent, starting with the U.S. of A. (Yes, I've seen the irony Sparky!)

I don't want to risk straying into politics again, but in this case the EU must take part of the blame. Or are you saying that the EU has NOT issued "directives" stating that metric must be used under penalty of law? If so, that's not what we've been told in England!

I totally agree though, that our government goes overboard when putting directives into national law. There have been cases quoted where the original EU directive ran to 2 pages or so, written in very general terms, and our bureaucrats converted that into 50+ pages of detailed rules, many times overstepping their legal jurisdiction in the process. The recent Customs & Excise case is a good example.

By the way, I ran into somebody here the other day who although having lived in this part of England all her life and using most English units on a regular basis, had never heard of a quart. Peculiar!

>Or are you saying that the EU has NOT issued "directives" stating
>that metric must be used under penalty of law?

I'm sure there is some directive that metric must be on goods shipped between countries. If Britain refused to accept goods in metric it would be a barrier to trade, and the EU would start screaming. But, what you and you're greengrocer use isn't an EU issue, as it isn't a barrier to trade.

We have our own share of bizarre rules and regulations, but I think these are becoming fewer and fewer. (A neighbour bought a car in the US with both mph and km/h on the speedometer. She had to remove the mph part to get the car registered!!!)

>If so, that's not what we've been told in England!

See!

We were all told that the whole idea was just to promote free trade and movement, but it does seem as though at least some of the "powers that be" have ideas of a European Superstate.

I have no objections to having metric measurements included on packets and boxes. After all, if we're going to sell to other countries, then it makes sense to include measurements that the majority of people in those countries will understand and be comfortable with (regulations aside). But as you've hinted at, why should a shopkeeper in England be told that he isn't allowed to use English measurements when selling to another Englishman?

I don't doubt that there are some old traditional units of measurement in practically all countries (any interesting ones in Sweden?), and I would defend the right of the people of those countries to continue using those units.

Now that's crazy! Our speed limits are still in MPH (at least for the moment!), and cars are required to have speedometers which indicate MPH, but there's nothing to say that km/h can't be shown as well. In fact, most new cars made in the last 20 years or more have dual-scales on them, and even some much older vehicles.

The acceptance of standards has certainly helped in some respects: I could never understand the bizarre old French rule about all cars (even visitors) having to have yellow headlights.

In a lot of instances, the change is made complicated by the lack of packaging products in newly sized pacakages with even (or rather, "whole") numbered metric weights.

Who can remember 355ml of soda? Most can remember a 12 0z. can. But conversely, we can all easily visualize a 2 litre bottle of soda pop and none of us call it a "2.1 Quart" bottle, simply because it was made in a new package with an even/whole number.

If things were introduced in sizes that made sense and were easy to remember, they could implement the metric system a lot quicker.

Woe is me if we ever have to go to metric measurements in the US! I'm metrically challenged.
My first hands on experience came as a teen on a surfing trip to Baja CA. We got across the border to find that the toll road headed south had a speed limit of 100! Wow!
The old Chevy station wagon would only do between 85-90 mph without shimmying & shaking, but even at that, we were shooting by the few other vehicles...a truck...a bus...a police car...uh oh.
When he stopped us, we had to pay the fine (on the spot was the custom, computed by the exact amount of cash we had in our wallets), although we argued that we weren't speeding. We never reached our destination, rather we had to take the old road back (no money for toll), dodging donkeys, chickens, dogs, & Mexicans at about 25 mph.
We made it nearly home before running out of fuel. When our older friend came with gas he explained to us..."No, 100 kph, you morons"