Today's adventure started with a splash ... and maybe someone out there has a solution!
The problem? Blowing leaves anf pouring rain conspire together, to block the drain at the bottom of a below-grade stairwell. The backed-up water in turn flows through a finished basement on it's way to the sump ... thoroughly soaking the carpet, the padding, the baseboards, and the lower 4" or so of sheetrock and insulation.
This may not sound like much, but add to it the fears of mold / mildew, and you're talking a pretty expensive clean-up and repair.
Not to mention the inconvenience ... for the next several days, this basement will be home to 16 fans and three huge dehumidifiers. Then along will come the contractor to patch the drain/ vent holes (added today), replace the bad dryawll, re-instal the carpet, and replace the baseboards.
So ... I'm asking the vast ECN membership .... is there any way to set an alarm for this condition, to notify the homeowner there's a problem before they're wading in it?
I would envision some type of floormat that could be place on the floor, that would respond to moisture. Maybe something commercial exists ... or, how would you make such a thing?
This enquiring mind wants to know.
Hey Reno,
I'm pretty sure I've such a thing. Search the internet "flood sensor." It is basically a little alarm with a small cord running to a sensor mounted near the floor. The "sensor" consists of 2 metal prods that are in contact with the floor. When water flows between the two prods the alarm goes off. Not sure if it works or not. I remember seeing it on "Ask This Old House." I think it's pretty inexpensive too, when you compare it to remodeling a basement.
Depending on the height of the threshold what about a float switch that closes when the water rises? Set it so it alarms before the water starts to roll in so it gives someone time to clear the drain.
Thanks, junk ... and you're right, these repairs get expensive in a hurry.
Which leads to another issue .... the house where this happened had something similar happen once before. Covered that time by insurance, you would think that the insurance company would have retro-fitted this into the last repair. It sure would beat paying another claim!
There are sensors that are nothing but probes, that, when covered with water complete a very high impedance circuit and ring the bell. You can do it with one gate of a CMOS chip
I have built a few circuits like this that have been operating for upwards of 20 years now. One section of a 4011 quad NAND gate can be used for the sensor amplifier and the other 3 sections can be used as inverters to drive whatever output devices you want.
A piece of PC board with interlocking "fingers" etched onto it makes a good sensor plate.
If you want a ready-made solution, converting a commercial bedwetting alarm might be a possibility...
Hey Reno,
I'm pretty sure I've such a thing. Search the internet "flood sensor." It is basically a little alarm with a small cord running to a sensor mounted near the floor. The "sensor" consists of 2 metal prods that are in contact with the floor. When water flows between the two prods the alarm goes off. Not sure if it works or not. I remember seeing it on "Ask This Old House." I think it's pretty inexpensive too, when you compare it to remodeling a basement.
We use those at work for early detection of flooding under the false decking of server rooms. They work very well.
You can drive SSRs directly off of a CMOS chip so it is really pretty easy.
http://www.koetterfire.com/leak-detection-systems/A tad pricey. but very effective.
I have just a simple detector in a pan under my water heater (similar to those for Leibert units) this controls a bell and a normally open solenoid on my feed line.
I'm on a well. A broken water heater could put a huge amount of water in my basement.
I use BS170 MOSFETs for applications like this because it can handle .5A on and 60 volts off. We have an A/C unit at work with a drip pan that drains into a large bucket. The bucket would overflow and make a huge mess before I built an alarm for it. I built it on a scrap piece of single sided copper clad, about 1" x 3". The piezo alarm was a 2 lead type from Radio Shack. Other parts are a 1M resistor, any small capacitor to RF bypass the gate, a 9V battery clip with leads, and some scrap telco cable. The battery is just taped to the ckt board underneath the piezo buzzer, I just put a little hook in the cable so that the end hangs about two inches into the bucket. By cutting the wires to 2 different lengths, before stripping them back 1/4", you avoid the accidental contact. The MOSFET is much beefier than CMOS and you can lay out the whole board with a Sharpie. You could even use a razor knife or Dremel to isolate the traces. The only critical spacing would be for the piezo buzzer. Parts cost is < $10.
Joe
Looks like there are plenty of choices out there. Steve has also suggested a small 'dam', made from a bead of caulk, be used to make the water pool just a bit where it enters, helping ensure that the sensor gets wet.
For all I know, the silly things are on the shelf at the local hardware store. This is closing the barn door after the horse has escaped, but what can you do?
If they have an alarm company they can get a sensor installed like the one the company that alarms my house offers.
http://www.aaaalarms.ca/portal/site...976401e63d0f6010VgnVCM1000000408120aRCRDIf their system is monitored it will give them 24/365 notice if they are at work or shopping of water coming in.
I had the same problem years ago. I installed a sump pump in a below grade barrel under a grate at the bottom of the stairs. I suppose an alarm would also be nice, but the pump completely solved my flooding problem. This is not a cheap solution, but it removed the stress of worrying about the leaves and melting snow every year. I also lowered the grade outside so that the concrete (and grate) were about 4" below the basement grade.
Did a quick look while out shopping this morning and they are not available at Rona or Home Depot in Canada.
At least the girl in plumbing at Rona made a note and was going to ask the department buyer if they could be a retail item.
Today's adventure started with a splash ... and maybe someone out there has a solution!.....
So ... I'm asking the vast ECN membership .... is there any way to set an alarm for this condition, to notify the homeowner there's a problem before they're wading in it?...
I don't usually do this... But this might be a simple solution, the slightest amount of water will set this off, and it's pretty loud:
http://www.licensedelectrician.com/Store/ZR/Leak_Alert.htmBill
GOOD GRIEF! Has it been there, in OUR store, all along?
Bill, I am humbled .... and I bet it's perfect for this place. Best of all, I can set it exactly where I know the water will be next time.
BTW ... there are some business lessons in this little mess.
We called the alarm company .... after looking through their stuff, the guy admitted that they DID have the capability, he even had a sensor in his shop, but he can't recall ever installing one. Hello missed sales!
The cleaning crew's opinion as to what had to be done / should be done, etc., seemed to change dramatically whether they thought the bill would be paid by us, or the insurance company. This really undermines the customers' confidence. Maybe part of the problem is that they see the insured and the insurance carrier as two different 'customers.' What I think should have happened, at the earliest stages of the clean-up, was that the lead man should have immediately sat down with the occupants and explained, in detail, what needed to be done, what his plan of action was, and the expected expense. If there was anything the customer could do to help (say, bringing in fresh air or raising the thermostat), that should have been mentioned.
Just as important, they should have explained whatever secondary damage was anticipated - such as damage to baseboards and fixing vent holes placed in the walls - exactly who gets to fix it, and when that might happen.
Reno,
I have a few of these around the house and they have saved me grief more than a few times.
To give you an idea how sensative they are - I test them by touching the bottom with a moist finger. A drop of water will set them off.
Bill
Did the adjuster not suggest anything to reduce the damage as they are usually onsite before the resoration recovery crew?
There has been no visit by any adjuster; the claim was flat-out denied. I am not surprised.
I assume there is only a standard homeowners' policy. Flooding is one thing that is typically excluded from insurance policies; 'flood insurance' is handled exclusively by the Federal Government.
What is covered by your usual policy is flood and water damage that is incidental to, that is caused by, some other insured event. For example, a broken water pipe.
http://www.orencocontrols.com/documents/pdfs/amsenti_docset.pdfHere in Oregon,{the sunny state} we use alot of the orenco float alarms along with a ZOELLER Automatic pump.
Similar to some of the other plumbing leak detecting systems already mentioned. Doesn't address the issue of flooding from external source (rain, sump pump, etc).
http://www.watercop.com/Sensor detects water (e.g. on floor near washing machine) and sends signal to electronic valve on water supply.
Certainly an interesting concept ... sort of a 'gfci' for plumbing!
For those interested... here's an update:
This basement was finished to the same standard as the rooms above, and used as much. While the water never exceeded 1/2" in depth - a total of about 80 gallons was pumped out- the damage will cost about $5000 to repair.
The biggest part was the expense in removing the water and drying out what remained. Next was the cost of replacing the carpet, ane repairing the tiled floor areas. Removing the panelling, drywall, and soaked insulation accounted for most of the remaining expense - and a great deal of the labor!
One of the alarms - especially the self-contained one posted by Bill - would have prevented this flood; there was someone sleeping within feet of the water's entry point, blissfully unaware that there was an issue. The drain could have been cleared and the flood prevented.
More importantly, the homeowners themselves set the stage for these massive losses by reodeling this basement in the 'cheapest, simplest' way, as they imperfectly understood construction methods. Well, they sure saved over using a contractor, didn't they?
I can't help but ponder the business lessons in this story.
The first was: This home has an alarm system; the alarm contractor missed an opportunity to sell his flood alarm 'extra.' That's unforgiveable in my business book!
Related to this is that a lot of bad feeling could have been avoided had the insurance company been even more explicit in stressing that 'flooding' and 'water damage' were not the same thing. This might have also been a good time to mention the alarm option.
The next lesson is a bit more subtle. There is the challenge for the licensed contractor, to get out the message that his design, his work, is worth the extra expense. Some relatively minor changes in the construction of this remodel could have greatly reduced the damage, and simplfied the dry-out after the flood.
"Base molding" 6" of the wall with Azek? No carpet and long legs on the furniture.
That is certainly a consideration - combined with no insulation for the first few inches.
Yet ... with hindsight being 20/20, probably the first thing that should have been done was to have a gypcrete contractor come in, and float in a dead flat floor that sloped ever so slightly to the sump. A few more floor drains mioght have helped as well.
While the floor looks flat and level to the casual observer, get down at base molding level, and you see it has more waves than the Pacific Ocean - and the flood revealed the sump was ever-so-slightly higher than the rest of the floor. So, step #1 is assuming water will enter - and step #2 is making sure it has somewhere to go.
Wood framing soaked water up like a straw, and metal framing pooled water in the bottom track.
The intricacy of the carpet layout made re-use impractical. I think a patchwork of area rugs, rather then wall-to-wall,
might have been a better choice too.
As this repair continues, there are a few business lessons to be learned.
The first has to do with the customers expectations, and how they can change. When it was an 'insurance claim,' it was 'get more fans, more dehimidifiers, things must be perfect.' After the claim was denied, and the HO was paying the bill, it was 'do we really need 16 fans, 4 dehimidifiers, and a crew of three guys?'
With the HO now directly involved in the repair, work slowed to a glacial pace. There was no systematic approach, but a helter-skelter effort as they reconsidered just what they wanted done. Being non-construction people, this involved painstakingly opening/ taking apart nearly every wall, repeating the earlier design errors, and hiding all manner of hackwork behind the paneling.
(Side note: For those who like to 'back-stab,' those connections do not like being wiggled about).
At this point, a good $5K into the clean-up, it takes several days to get the HO to spring $1.50 for a piece of molding. Nor is the HO willing to explore commercial supply houses; if it's not at the box stores, it is off the radar.
Another factor slowing things down is the HO re-evaluating every visible element. It's not enough to replace the baseboard; now every room is re-evaluated as to the type of baseboard, etc.
The HO has no idea as to the 'sequence of operations.' For example, they want a certain room reoccupied first, yet this is the only room where cutting and painting can be done. There's a conflict there.
Finally, as the project drags on, the HO is losing enthusiasm, brooding on how long things are taking, feeling overwhelmed by the work necessary, and falling into a depressed lethargy. Not good.
Sounds like working for the govt'
There can never be a proper fix to this problem while the floor slopes away from the drain, because an alarm of any nature relies on someone hearing it - and acting to clear the drain blockage in time if no other egress for water exists. Rain can arrive anytime and in unbelievable quantities, especially in these times of unstable climate. The answer for a 100% cure is to regrade the floor with a sand/cement [ or gypsum but I've never heard of this use before?] screed to proper height and falls of say 1-100 and sort out a proper engineered drainage solution. Since insurance will not pay for any future flooding, a basement sump pump to back up the gravity drain is probably the best option. But as the owner seems to be retreating from reality, even in terms of the cost of a few dollars worth of trim, I doubt any advise will be heeded anyway.
You can't educate pork.
Alan, you're preaching to the choir.
In the past I've had floors levelled using 'gypcrete' or a gypsum-rich concrete. This is an exceptionally strong, waterproof mix that also flows very well; I think its as fluid as water when first poured. It can be sloped, levelled, and finished to an extremely close tolerance. I'm not even sure there is any sort of aggregate in it.
As for the owner's quirks ... this experience is highlighting the differences between a pro and a DIY. It's underscoring the need for having a plan and actual job management. Instead, we're sort of drifting along.
One factor in the equation is a desire to just throw it back together, just well enough to last until the place is sold (in some undefined future). Pass it along to the next guy.
It's also clear that these same exacting, eagle-eyed customers have absolutely no shame in hiding all manner of hackwork behind the panelling. I guarantee they'd have a fit if a contractor tried doing the same thing.
"It's also clear that these same exacting, eagle-eyed customers have absolutely no shame in hiding all manner of hackwork behind the panelling. I guarantee they'd have a fit if a contractor tried doing the same thing."
If they do it in their house they are saving money, if a contractor does it in the same house they are being ripped off.