Everything on the internet is always right!
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Electrical-Wiring-Home-1734/ground-wiring-system.htm

Wow someone is completely mis-informed on how a GFCI really works. Someone needs to do a little research before they post a response.

Good Find. lol

NAW! Why should they try and research the correct answer. It sounds good, and after all they are the "Expert" here on that board!

When I click on ask an expert a question, I don't even get a place to enter a question. What a silly, poorly designed, website (not to mention the error by an "ex-spurt"). I did find a form to submit an issue with the FAQ. So I submitted that the FAQ lacked an explanation on how to post a rebuttal for an error from an "expert". Will see what I get.

Here are the experts credentials.

About Alex Napier
Expertise
I can answer pretty much any electrical question that would arise from 120/240 single phase systems. Those found in the home.

Experience
I've been a residential electrician for 9 years. I've wired new houses and have updated old houses. Everything i do either meets or surpases the electric code (NEC)

Education/Credentials
I learned from several Master electricians. On the site. I don't really have any formal schooling. But i have gotten many compliments from those in my trade. Including the local power company. Needless to say i don't have alot of trouble getting local permits because i have already proven myself. I've proven i know what i'm doing and i proved i do clean, safe work. Easily meeting or surpasses the local codes

Good catch Jim,
This guy is a dreamer, we have all learned from electricians.
The difference being, we actually went to Night school and got some sort of licence to do what we do.

Compliments add up to nothing, no matter who they are from, if you haven't got something in writing (as in a legally binding certificate), you have no right to be giving out in-competently thought-up advice.

This guy says he has proven himself, to whom?, I wonder, obviously not to any sort of a State Licencing Board.

It's amazing the tangents this thread brings to mind ....

First, I think of a recent job, were 99% of the work had been done by an unlicensed guy, who had dropped out of the apprentice program half-way through. Oh, his work was quite neat and competent - but it was also clear just where his education stopped. Those parts of the job that involved topics taught later in the program .... controls, contactors, alarms, even troubleshooting the lighting .... he avoided. He had never learned those parts.

Then I think of an upcoming job, where the GC and I are having a bit of a disagreement as to the required electric. The GC has overlooked several required circuits, and has placed 6 hair dryers, four curling irons, and the cash register on the same circuit. Do you think the customer - a hair salon - will be happy if the GC has his way?

OK, so I'm better trained than the GC and the half-trained guy. How do I get this message through to customers? How do I put a value on my 'design judgement?' That's the business challenge I have to face.

I don't have any formal schooling, either. Nor am I an electrician or EC. Yet I know how a GFCI works and know it can be used on an ungrounded circuit. I know what ground fault means and that it can exist (and can be protected for) without an EGC. Does that mean I could qualify as an expert on that other web site? It might. And that is what scares me because I should not qualify. I might be able to answer THAT question right, but what about the others?

Maybe he can wire lights, outlets, and a panel in a home and actually get it right and make it safe. I believe I could do that. And I've done pieces of such work on my own home (I'm still here and alive). But would Mr. Napier be able to correctly retrofit older wiring? Apparently not. I'd hire an electrician ... but not him.

Oh, I'm here on ECN to keep up my perspectives in case my next job goes back into data center facilities management and I need to work with ECs. Things work smoother when the design requirements don't have code issues, for example.

Back to the so called expert. Google found this for me:

http://www.liveperson.com/alex-napier/

I wonder if that's the same Alex Napier.

Reminds me of the picture I saw here a while back of the nice neat installation where the phases were not in balance in the conduits.

I remember that old commercial where the one guy said to the other, "Let me do it boss! I always wanted to be a lectrician." (Or maybe it was a mechanic.) It just sounds better as an lectrician!

I think that was a commercial for AAMCO Transmissions, where the yokel mechanic comes up and says "Let me do it. I ain't never worked on one of them Japanese trans-misshy-ons before".

DIY Network has a delightful show "Renovation Realities" that plays most Sundays.

It's worth committing to TIVO.

Plenty of laughs every time.

The typical episode features brazen DIY white collar professionals goofing all over their project.

It's video documentation of how arrogant these folks are: they assume that the trades are a snap and that every craft is a simple as boiling water.

At the end the refrain is always the same: this is the last time we're ever going to play at construction!

As for Alex Napier: perhaps he's got too much time on his hands -- I know I do! Plainly he holds himself in high regard. ( a common fault of electricians everywhere ) Thankfully he is only confusing the public.

By his posting I'd not want him training ANY apprentice.

As for having an encyclopedic knowledge of our craft -- I don't think anyone can say they have it. It's too large a body of knowledge.

BTW, if the GFCI is feeding a hot tub you really will need that grounding conductor. Hot tubs build a very significant capacitive coupling within the water which must be bled off to the ground rod/Ufer. I've measured over 50 Volts to ground!

I am not sure how you legally avoid it. There are references to "minimum 12ga insulated copper" EGCs all over 680.

I would like to see the bonding of plastic package spa's strengthened if we can't enforce a 3' minimum insulated deck around all of them. There is a conversation going as we speak over on usenet about a guy with a ground shift between his concrete patio and the Hot Springs plug in spa.
Not enough to trip the GFCI, just enough to tingle. Scary!

DYI = Do Yourself In?

I just LOVE that show. Especially when the one guy can't find the gas shutoff and decided to take the sawzall to the gas line hoping that it doesn't spark.
Or the guy that went to take down a soffit and found that it was covering an I-beam (which he also took out because it was in the way).

I'd really like to know how they get folks to sign up to be on this show.
"If you have no blinking idea what you're doing...and not a single clue about anything...let us film your project so that you can humiliate yourself on national TV".

Funny thing, I also saw an old CSI that made this same misinformed assumption and presented it as fact.

Somebody rigs a construction site by disconnecting the ground to a GFCI, then puts a nail in a guys boot to create a path to ground. They then rig a hammer drill to energize the housing. The guy starts up the drill, gets hit, then falls several stories off of an open floor of the building.

The whole basis, which they state as fact, is that GFCI's do not work without a ground.

I think this guy may watch a little too much TV.

Ah, the talented gentleman amateur, always good for a larf!
I've posted these before, but what the heck!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0x8kml-afs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EZH1GZUtx8

Alan

Capacitive coupling in the water?
How does that work?

Sounds a bit risqué, Mike. Best not to ask!

I believe Tesla is asserting that the movement of the water, the 'rubbing,' as it were, of the water against the piping as wall as itself, somehow leads to the creation of voltage within the water.

It's not an unknown concept; something similar happens every time you pump gas. Yet, I've never heard of it being accomplished with simple water. I can only assume the water Tesla used was way too pure, had way too much oil in it - or his meter found a ghost.

Zapped:



I saw that same episode!!! Bitched endlessly through the entire Show, angering my Wife in the process (I really know how to pick my battles, huh??? )

Reno:



In this situation, I would suggest to propose the installation as fit - according to some form of Load Schedule (Panel Schedule, Load calc, etc.), which outlines the coincidental loads on a given circuit.

For an actual scenario to demonstrate to the Client as proof of what an overloaded circuit would be, plug in 3 Hair Dryers to a Plug Strip, run them all at high setting, and wait for the trip.

Suggest to place the Cash Register on its own Designated Circuit. Nothing sucks worse for any Business, than when the P.O.S. (Point Of Sales) is down!!!

The Dryers may be across 2, 3 or if necessary 6 Circuits; depends on the diversity of use.

As to the Curling Irons, these do not draw very much Power. My Wife's is rated at 80 Watts, however the Dryer is rated for 1800 Watts at maximum setting.

As mentioned, I believe your case demonstrates that the GC is less competent in Electrical Systems' design, and your experiences + understanding of potential risk factors supersedes the GC's Design base concepts, therefore the Client's best choice would be to accept your proposed installation, with little to no haggling.

< Enter Reality >

If we lived in a Perfect World, the above would be a default method of Proposals.

Unfortunately, when (or if) the GC presents the Proposal to the Client, there will - by Default - be price negotiations.
So the GC contacts you, requesting a more competitive bid.

BTW, the "or if" statement above refers to the GC compiling their Proposal using your bid without addendum for only one circuit to the P.O.S., 6 Dryers and 4 Curling Irons.

As to the OP / topic of this thread; the BBS discussion thread referenced at the DIY site sure has a lot of pseudo-science thrown around (read: Bandini Tech.).

I was wondering where the main Manure pile originated; the source of Bandini Tech. of which many DIY's have been submitted to + believe as fact, and now it appears we have stumbled across the unholy leaking vessel!

Anyhow, thanks for the link + laughs.

Scott

The salt from sweat builds up in the hot tub.

The off-the-shelf quasi-portable hot tub violently pumps this ionized fluid all too close to the motor pump fields.

Any time you have charges forced through a magnetic field you'll get energy transfer.

This particular effect is known as capacitive coupling though if I were to name it I'd call it something like the Hall effect.

If you get the installation instructions for the hot tub they are very specific that the GFCI must be a fully grounded one, not merely a fix for a two wire circuit.

For the particular hot tub I worked with, I had to run a separate grounding conductor back and bond it to their continuously exposed copper main water supply which in turn was bonded to the GEC. Immediately after that the water voltage went to zero.

Greg is witnessing the same phenomenon with his 'stray' voltage. It must be bled off. Further efforts to isolate and insulate will merely permit the voltage to jack up to astounding thresholds.

What you are witnessing is a secondarily derived power supply right into the bath of slightly salty water.

This aspect of hot tubs is not well explained in the customer literature but should be. At some point someone is going to get hurt and lawsuits will flow.

Normally a 680 compliant hut tub will have enough grounded and bonded metal in contact with the water to bleed off this charge but there is nothing to prevent voltage gradients between the tub and a concrete pad if it is not bonded.

well the problem is, we aren't called when that concrete is poured.....~S~

The inspector in me says "gee that's too bad"
That is still not a compliant install (2005 and beyond).

The reality is there are deck kits that will give you 3' of insulated deck around the tub if you can't create an equipotential plane around it.

I love that show Renovation Realities! I use to watch it every Sun. night. I don't think that it is on anymore.


Greg,

I have seen those insulated running mats for around the hot tub. They don't look too bad, but you have to wonder how long are they around for after the AHJ leaves?

.. About as long as the door alarm or the smoke alarm on the peak of that cathedral ceiling after the battery dies

Actually I was thinking about a Trex deck that circles the spa at rim height and give the people a place to sit on the edge.

I still want a man cave. I will do the electrical myself or watch them the whole time.

Zapped...

Hollywood never shows a technically effective way to commit a crime.

A script writer is required to conjure up a plot that suspends disbelief for the average viewer. Only occasionally will it intersect with reality.

My Uncle was a District Attorney. He's not allowed to watch any crime or legal dramas. The rest of the family cannot put up with his vocal scorn and abuse of the shows.

As for unreality: the next time you watch the shower scene in Psycho look up for the fire sprinkler head over the tub!
Try and find a 1950's strip motel with a fire surpression system!

And think of all of the Hollywood elevator cabins that have hatches to the topside! Any such hatch is code prohibited. They never exist anywhere except in the Hollywood imagination.

It's all mind candy, so I go with the flow and turn off my brain.

I have seen lots of elevators with a hatch in the ceiling.

The reality is you can usually just push the door open and the latch on the building side is easy to trip from the car side.
Just don't linger in the door as you are getting out. If it starts moving out will kill you.

Yeah; that's a rescue hatch and is 'supposed' to only be openable from someone on top of the cab. I found it in the Elevator Code one day when I was bored and read it to try to fall asleep.

But then we've all seen stuff in the movies where cars drive off a cliff and explode before they hit the ground. Why did that happen? Was the car afraid of heights??

I suspect that you, unintentionally, answered all these comments with the post title "DYI" 'Do yourself In' instead of "DIY" 'Do It Yourself'. That's how I refer to these DIY books and DIY stores in all my classes ... DYI.

DIY = Destroy It Yourself.