ECN Forum
Posted By: Fredmeister Made in China - 12/04/02 08:07 PM
What is your take on all of the cheap toy Lighting Systems and Light Fixture Copies, that are flooding our Country from Asia.

It is said that the Asian market has already a 17% share of all Lighting Fixtures sold in the US.

How important to you is the quality of products and the support services that one receives from domestic Manufacturer's?

Or... could it be that price is everything?

What are your thoughts?
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Made in China - 12/04/02 08:30 PM
Well...
As we primarily do comm. & industrial, the "import" thing has not surfaced in the fixtures yet.
I recently went looking for two sconces for my daughter's house. All we came across are "Made in China". Had a thought for a Liteolier model, but alas, 12 to 16 weeks.
No, I'm not in Greenland, or Siagon, I'm in NJ...
She settled for the "$70.00 China Model"

If the suppliers would not sell the cheap stuff, perhaps they could inventory the good stuff. If the US Manufacturers controlled there prices, perhaps they would not loose market share. It's a viscious cycle, with no easy solution. Someone is making money on the "imports".

If the fixtures have LEGAL UL listing, they are acceptable to be installed (legally) by contractors. We may not like it, but what's the choices???

Boy, we can get off on a bunch of tangents now can't we...
We sell "scrap" to the foreign countries, they convert the scrap into items, and we buy it back. I question sometimes the fact of "what do we still MAKE in this country"??

BTW, there has been a assortment of devices that are getting onto the shelves from "overseas"; receptacles, switches, GFCI's, etc.

I GUESS IT'S CHEAPER TO MAKE EVERYTHING "OFF SHORE" AND SHIP IT IN, then to make it here.

What do we still make here????

John
Posted By: SvenNYC Re: Made in China - 12/04/02 08:32 PM
There's lots of bad merchandise that comes from China. However, there are also a lot of very well-built things. You just have to be very selective when buying things

The same holds true for "Made in the USA." A lot of things "made in the USA" are made using sweatshop labor (New York, Boston, Philadelphia, etc. are full of these sweatshops) and are complete junk (has happened to me).

When all is said and done...it all comes back to price. Nobody will pay $20 for the same light fixture that can be bought for $5 just because it's "Made in USA."

What's funny about that 17% figure you posted is that here in New York City, practically all the lighting supply stores are owned/run by Chinese folks who are importing some interesting items we would have never seen in this country (USA) otherwise (like a lot of European-market cord switches and lamp-holders).

Go figure. [Linked Image]
Posted By: txsparky Re: Made in China - 12/04/02 08:55 PM
It seems as though 99% our 2x4 layins are made(assembled)in Mexico.but if you are purchasing for residential at the BigBox stores,Made In China pops up on nearly everything.
Posted By: sparky Re: Made in China - 12/04/02 10:03 PM
I'll refer all my residential customers to lighting shops, on the premis that they are certified in lighting design.

I figure the shops can back up the crap they sell, beacuse i sure don't want to.....
Posted By: Bjarney Re: Made in China - 12/05/02 12:18 AM
No offense against the country or citizens meant, but there is another aspect.

An associate visited China on an invitation to see their manufacturing capabilities for electronic stuff. Back at home he told me some industrial safety and working conditions seemed as if from the stone age.




[This message has been edited by Bjarney (edited 12-05-2002).]
Posted By: harold endean Re: Made in China - 12/05/02 02:43 AM
John,

Talk about a tangent, I was reading about several items found that were fake that had the UL label on them. The "other" country had put false UL labels on their items and shipped them back to USA. Now I here that UL has labels that are holigrams to prevent forgery. I was looking at a set of Christmas lights that I thought were a piece of crap. There was a legal UL lapel on it that was a holigram. Though the lights were made in China, the UL lapel was made in the USA. Are they a legal set of lights? You would think so. Right?

Harold
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Made in China - 12/05/02 03:51 AM
Harold:
A while back, one supplier had GFCI,s from China......had a UL sticker.....only ones he had in stock. Said "they are 50 cents cheaper...My guy's took a box of ten, that they needed for a job & truck stock.

Got a call a few days later, GFI in bathroom don't work. Damn thing crapped out in two days, in a "private" bathroom in a office bldg. Replaced it with another...crapped out on first "test". Hell, I'm glad they were 50 cents cheaper. I took the stand a the supplier "If all you have is this crap, I'll go elsewhere"....he went back to the domestic stuff.
Saw the counterfit article (UL) and I've heard some stories from a few sales reps about the proliferation of the fake crap, and the nice mark-up's that's earned along the many hands.

John
Posted By: SvenNYC Re: Made in China - 12/05/02 04:23 PM
Keep in mind that the UL listing is only to indicate that the device is safe to use (it won't catch fire (as fast), won't electrocute you if used properly, meets certain minimum electrical and safety standards, etc.). It's not an endorsement about the quality or longevity of the device.

Something can be as poor quality as you want...but as long as it doesn't bust into flames and kill you.

Also, the UL label isn't compulsory but is used more as a sales tool. Walk into any discount or hardware store and you'll see lots of electrical devices being sold without any sort of testing agency approval (particularly those 99 cent triple-taps, extension cords, grounding "adapters", those replacement open-front rubber plugs with that little slip-on plastic or cardboard insulator, lampholders, etc).

Safety requirements in the USA are sort of lax. At best. Probably because that's how free market environments work.
Posted By: pauluk Re: Made in China - 12/05/02 07:21 PM
Made in China has become increasingly common in England as well.

One thing I won't touch is hand tools. I've yet to see any such tools made in China that are anything but cheap and nasty junk (pliers with jaws that aren't true and flush, unhardened screwdriver tips, etc.).
Posted By: Texas_Ranger Re: Made in China - 12/05/02 08:08 PM
I once saw made-in-china pliers that wouldn't even open halfways. Our made-in-china $35 rotary hammer drill worked nice, except for two problems. 1: It had a drill stop option for chiseling, but the chisel would still move freely. 2: After short use the switch failed and the company wasn't able to neither repair nor replace. However, heatgun from the same manufacturer works perfect. So I guess it's also a great deal of luck.
Posted By: Fredmeister Re: Made in China - 12/05/02 08:45 PM
"It seems as though 99% our 2x4 layins are made(assembled)in Mexico"

No believe it or not that would cost too much. Lay-ins are still made here. Almost every town still has a "Metal Bender". At least in our area.

Did you know that the Labor Cost to produce a standard Lay-in is a whopping $ 2.70.

(9% Labor, 54% Materials is the average)
Posted By: electech Re: Made in China - 12/05/02 10:24 PM
A safety mark (UL, ETL, MET, TUV, etc) only means a lab has reviewed a "representative sample" of the product and has decided it passes the applicable safety standard. The standard may have dozens or hundreds of requirements and tests, of which maybe only 3 or 4 tests are actually performed (using engineering judgement to determine what the problem areas might be for a given product). The safety report issued will indicate critical aspects of the product that cannot be changed without updating the safety report. This is often where the process breaks down. A manufacturer can legitimately change the product after the safety evaluation is complete. It's up to the manufacturer to know if that change requires retesting at the NRTL. The fee the NRTL charges may cloud that judgement. The NRTL will conduct regular audits of the listed manufacturing location. Hopefully any indiscretions will be caught in a factory audit, but the audit doesn't cover every product every year - just a random sample. Also, the responsible party for a product needs to be very careful that a 3rd party manufacturer(say for instance in China) doesn't take it upon themselves to cost reduce your product for you in the interest of putting a little extra dough in their own pocket. Could be thinner steel, lower grade hardware, cheaper plastic and insulation with inadequate flame ratings, ineffective shipping cartons, etc, etc.

I suspect that at certain test labs, there is more coffee drinking than testing. (speaking of...I better get back to work)
Posted By: John Steinke Re: Made in China - 12/06/02 12:37 AM
I'm going to voice some outrageoug opinions here, but my experiences support them:
-some places (Red China, for example) have a set of ethics that say "close enough" os OK, and have no tradition of standing behind their work. You buy it, it's yours, period. Not what you thought you were buying, represented as something else, too bad.
-some places have have only respect for someone who is clever enough to cheat them; they pride themselves in being so clever that they can, and do, cheat as a matter of course. You want UL sticker, we put UL sticker on. No problem. Also, what is UL?

So what to do? Be wary of products whose only US site is the sale office.
On the other hand, reputable US firms, with a reputation for quality, are sure to look carefully at whatever they put their name on.
Finally, know what things mean. UL tests to certain safety-related standards; whether something is a piece of junk or not is another issue entirely.
Posted By: Fredmeister Re: Made in China - 12/06/02 01:10 AM
Talking about Standards and Safety...

Do any of you ever actually read the specs on stuff you are installing? Before you Buy it? ... and try to substitute it for something better if you know what to use?

What specs? A color picture on the cardboard box?


Btw... they can copy hologram stickers too..
Posted By: Trumpy Re: Made in China - 12/06/02 05:04 AM
Our Hardware stores are full of this junk,
people are just lapping up this rubbish.
It is bought cheap, in bulk, to make a tidy profit.
Just as a sideline, I had a NZ$850 Soft-starter, hooked up to a Pre-Breaker unit
(mulches up beef and pork bones, at the local Meat-works),long story short, the instructions were all in Chinese, no Schematic, not a word of English.
Hooked it up how I thought it should be connected, applied power, BOOM!!, one soft-starter, goes by the wayside, Not good enough!, lets bring back local manufacturing
for Godsakes.
Posted By: electure Re: Made in China - 12/06/02 01:09 PM
Although the "imitation" luminaires are usually poorly constructed, we've got some domestic companies (try Simkar of PA) that can almost out-Chinese the Chinese.
As long as the fixture doesn't fall apart when installed, or the lampholder doesn't twist out when it's relamped, there's really not a major safety issue, is there?
I believe the scary part is that as stated GFI's and the like are being sold here.
The Big Box carries a line of Chinese C/Bs (which, BTW, showed up in the Southeast with some fake U/Ls some time ago). They make replacements for such winners as "Stab-lok", "Pushmatic", and the Zinsco type "Z", as well as some others.
A copy of an OCPD that has such a bad track record anyway is a very frightening thing to me. They shouldn't be allowed to sell this type of thing to the unwary.
(And yes, Fredmeister, I do read the specs on every part I use, always)...S

[This message has been edited by electure (edited 12-06-2002).]
Posted By: SvenNYC Re: Made in China - 12/06/02 04:57 PM
ELECTURE: As long as the fixture doesn't fall apart when installed, or the lampholder doesn't twist out when it's relamped, there's really not a major safety issue, is there?
==========================================

Had that happen years ago with a ceiling fan my mom bought from Macys when I was still a teenager. Everytime we would go to change the bulbs, the sockets would start twisting out off the nipples. It was an overpriced piece of crap.

We replaced some of the sockets with improved models but to no avail.

Eventually my mom called one day from work and told me to take the fan out and re-install the original porcelain lampholder that was there when we moved in. I gladly did so.

Needless to say, I wasn't very careful with that fan after I undid the splices in the the fixture box. Ever let a ceiling fan motor just ... drop? [Linked Image]
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Made in China - 12/07/02 03:28 AM
Electure:
I'm with you...there is some crap made here also. Had a real great $$ on 18 cell 2x4 lay-ins. Specs are the same as the "spec brand" said the supplier. I took the bait..ok'd the order. Had the delivery on-time...hey, a home run???
Well, now I know what happens to all the aluminum cans that we have to recycle....
If you look at the parabolic too hard, it's bent out of shape.. flimsy is being generous.

190 of the damn things, 73 bad parabolics; took 2 weeks to get replacements.

Live & learn.
Posted By: INTP Re: Made in China - 12/07/02 04:31 AM
I have noticed that some of the chinese made tools now available are of increasingly good quality. I suspect that this trend will continue.

I'm just old enough to remember another version of this discussion, but with one difference. "Made in Japan" instead of "Made in China".
Posted By: CTwireman Re: Made in China - 12/07/02 04:37 AM
My dad is heavily involved in manufacturing, and his assement is that China is years behind Japan, Europe and the US. The level of quality is just not there right now.
And, as Bjarney mentioned, "workers rights" is something of a foreign concept to many manufacturers in China.

However, as heavy foreign investment $$ continue to flow into China, I suspect the quality will get better, as INTP menitoned.
Posted By: sparky Re: Made in China - 12/07/02 10:46 AM
this is the result of NAFTA , remember Ross Perot?

he warned us about that 'giant sucking sound south'
Posted By: j a harrison Re: Made in China - 12/07/02 06:19 PM
We had one of our supply house sales idiots over to our works office about a week ago telling us all about these new double pole switched sockets, (double pole, switches neutral and the hot off at the same time)in from the far east,

he comes on saying that they are all up to spec, and then produced three of them from his case,

I had a look at all three and then asked him if we could test them, `yes mate, no problem` was his answer,

off i go to the workshop, wired up and loaded with 13amp 230v ac, went to get a coffew, came back after ten mins, the GCFI was out,

looked into the test area and there was this plastic mess, the piece of sXXt had melted !!

the cost of this socket was about $4.50 cheaper than the usual ones we use, but the moral of the story is, (to me any way),

Always use what you know and trust, cheapest aint always the best.

I sleep very well at night because i know all my staff and myself will only fit good and reliable quality accessories to our sites.

John H
Posted By: g3guy Re: Made in China - 12/08/02 05:03 PM
I hate to rain on your parade guys but some of the finest tools with the American name are made in China. China is every bit as capable as the US in producing quality products. But since their overall pay structure is lower than ours it is very lucrative to take their sub standard products and dump them here. Where do you think our junk goes? We have been dumping our stuff all over the world a lot longer than China. If any of you can pry yourself away from listening to corrupt politicians tell you how wonderful you are, and visit the rest of the planet, looking back in gives a rather different view.
Posted By: Fredmeister Re: Made in China - 12/09/02 01:43 PM
True ... a lot of things are made there by companies you all know.

The difference is that when you are buying a part from an " American Company " who happens to own a factory over there you can be assured that they will stand behind the products and fix quality issues that may arise. They can afford to give you better service. (Back to the main subject)

If you ever run into a problem caused by a ultra cheap " no-name " Brand, who will you call? Yourself?

Chances are that you will eat any replacements, because I'm sure that your customer will not buy the "I sold you junk by accident and you need to pay to replace it" Story.

Am I wrong in assuming that most of you warranty your work and equipment for a year?
Posted By: The Watt Doctor Re: Made in China - 12/09/02 03:16 PM
I think we have a moral obligation to not do business with China. Why? You may ask. Because we are financing their communist government. We're going to end up fighting those people one of these days, and they are going to be using weapons that we paid for.
I was in the Navy around the time that that F-16 that we sold to Iraq, fired upon the USS Stark. We may not be selling weapons to China, but we are sure as heck funding their war machine. As far as I'm concerned, that government is our enemy. If you remember not very long ago they held one of our P-3's, and it's crew, and we had a heck of a time getting them back. I'm sure there are some fine people over there who don't back their government, and I feel bad for them, but I say, "cut the government off".
I could give a rat's butt about the quality of their products when religious persecution, and forced abortion are the word of the day in China.
Do I have some made in China items in my house? I know I do, but as with many things we buy made in China because that is all that is available at the time, but I still don't think it is right. Shame on me!
I'm not an isolationist. I believe in fair trade, but I also believe in what I would call moral trade. I'm sure that there are other countries that we do business with that are just as bad or worse than China, but IMHO right now China is the biggest threat. By the way, get in line N. Korea, you're cotton pickin' next.
China is a serious issue with me because our government's sponsorship of China is second only to the UN's, so when the loaf does hit the fan we'll be standing alone with the British (thanks PaulUK, and Sir J A Harrison) just like we are right now in the situation with Iraq.
I'll by conclude by saying that the heat coming off this post is not directed at any member of ECN, or anyone who has responded to this thread. I get a little upset when our government funds the oppressors, and the last time I checked, our government was us. Sometimes I wonder how it all got this way.
Now, if y'all will excuse me for a minute, it's somewhere between 40 and 50 degrees outside, and I'm going to take off my shirt, and lay in mud puddle for a little while. Got to cool off.

Popping the buttons off my shirt,
Doc
Posted By: CTwireman Re: Made in China - 12/09/02 06:29 PM
Well said Doc. There's really not much that is untrue about what you said. IMHO, the general public is not aware of these issues that you raise.

Interesting fact: Wal-Mart Stores is one the largest importers, if not the largest, of merchandise from China. Everyday low prices maybe. But at what cost to society?
Posted By: Fredmeister Re: Made in China - 12/09/02 08:06 PM
the cost to you: that soon you will be buying your supplies from a catalog or website cheap...... because most of the local professional suppliers will be out of business....

You can always go to the Orange Nightmare for seconds or factory rejects....and wait in line behind a bunch of Ladies buing custom mixed Paints and a Toilet Bowl Brush....

Maybe Walmart will start selling electrical supplies too some day.... and Cars ... and Maybe they will start building and wiring houses some day too....for $ 7.50 per hour
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