ECN Forum
Posted By: HotLine1 Fios....... - 03/13/09 12:06 AM
Looking for opinions, or comments please!

'Fios' (Verizon Fiber Optic Service)....is NOT a 'utility' as Verizon (Telco) is.

Based on the 'not utility', electrical permits and inspections required in other than single family dwellings (SFD).

IF any penetrations in rated walls/ceilings of SFD's then a permit & inspection is required.

Any opinions on this from NJ or other locations where this is available?

Posted By: gfretwell Re: Fios....... - 03/13/09 01:40 AM
John, you really are willing to open up the worm can aren't you?
If I wanted to make that distinction I would have to go after the TelCo and the CableCo too. The guy who shows up is not usually an employee of the company. They are "trunk slammer" contractors with nothing more than an address the company can mail a 1099 to. I doubt any of these guys are actually licensed. I wasn't even sure the break we gave "utilities" extended beyond the area the NESC controls. We used to give Ma Bell a break because we knew the employee was a well trained union journeyman who was going to work within the bounds of the Bell System Practices book.
Now days everyone is a "contractor", usually unlicensed.
Posted By: EV607797 Re: Fios....... - 03/13/09 02:40 AM
John:

Like Greg said, Verizon's new FIOS division is not a part of their regulated utility. They are scrambling to get customers off of their regulated utility side and onto FIOS so that they aren't under the scrutiny (AKA: Regulated utility) rate structures. Once they get a customer away from the regulated side, they intentionally destroy any facilities that connect the building to the regulated network. The customer then falls under the variable pricing structures and loose rules such as those provided by satellite providers. Their installers are instructed to cut the buried drop wire where it emerges from the ground and in the case of aerial service, they are instructed to cut the drop wire down. That doesn't always happen.

I strongly suggest that anyone who subscribes to Verizon's FIOS or at&t's U-Verse service to insist upon keeping at lease one copper phone line so that they can't destroy your connectivity to the regulated network. Once that connection is gone, it becomes a case of anything goes.

Regardless of their being a regulated utility or not, the NEC's utility exemptions only apply to wiring done outside of the building. Everybody has to comply with NEC and other local rules once it comes inside. Verizon has no more authority to do inside wiring than you do and they must comply with the same requirements that you do. They are only exempt from NEC requirements until their cable(s) enter the building.

The State of New York has launched an investigation regarding the shoddy workmanship associated with installations performed by Verion's trunk slamming contractors. In the area where I live, most construction is newer and the utilities are underground for the most part. That has slowed the roll out of FIOS here. With that being said, their installations are still being done by real Verizon employees, not fly by night jack-legs..........For now. In older areas, Verizon can't get that fiber in the air fast enough. They are chomping at the bit to get customers off of their older copper facilities so that they don't have to rebuild or maintain them.

Oh and Greg: Sadly, BSPs are out the window. What was left of the Bell System is gone, as is the quality that BSPs represented. Bell System standards were much more strict than anything that the NEC has to offer, but that was then.....
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Fios....... - 03/13/09 02:49 AM
The can of worms is opened by DCA, and filtered down to me and other AHJ's here in NJ.

Yes, it's going to be a nightmare with getting permit/insp compliance for us.

Yes, we have the utility stops at the demarc rules here, but...try chasing a cable guy. Telco (copper) & cable in new const is done by the EC's; the condos/townhouses are the bad situations with 'cable guys'. Now....I have to look out for Fios.

BTW, the few Fios vans/trucks I have seen are Verizon vehicles.

Also, I have not taken the Fios 'offers' at my home; I want a copper line & I also need to know how much $$$ after the $79 intro period. No copper to remain? No cost after initial intro = no fios for me.

Thanks for the input guys...any more
Posted By: noderaser Re: Fios....... - 03/13/09 03:01 AM
Has anyone else heard of the rumors about Qwest and Verizon trying to pull off a merger? I hope the FCC and SEC won't let that happen, as the results could be pretty damn scary. I've already cut ties with Qwest, over an incident with their "Price for Life" scam.

Even if that doesn't happen, between the two of them they've got control of most of the country's telecom. It's obvious that they have their hands in each other's pockets, as Qwest no longer offers its own Cell service, instead contracting with Verizon. I thought deregulation was supposed to prevent that sort of thing from happening? I guess it only works for a while, until the FBO's start buying each other out.

Other than power, I'm completely "wireless" now; digital antenna TV, cell phone and WiMAX (Clear/Clearwire) internet. Unfortunately, all those things have to use telco wires somewhere...
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Fios....... - 03/13/09 03:27 AM
From a purely electrical standpoint there is really not that much to worry about with comm cabling but you still could be dealing with penetrations and flame/smoke issues depending on what cable they use and how they run it.
I agree it would be a nightmare trying to get permits and inspections every time the cable guy comes to your house.
That still doesn't do anything for the handyman work.
We have low voltage licensing here in Florida and I bet that is the least enforced law in the trades. Most guys who do this don't even know there is a licensing requirement and that is particularly true of telecom "contractors".
Posted By: EV607797 Re: Fios....... - 03/13/09 03:39 AM
I'd like to say no, but it would not surprise me. I was surprised that the at&t/BellSouth merger happened. BellSouth was the last remaining Bell company, bringing on the end of the Bell System. Today, telephone markets have become a commodity and the customers are just pawns.

Last year, Verizon decided that their former Bell Atlantic territories in ME, NH and VT weren't profitable enough so they sold these markets to a little-known company called Fairpoint Communications. After months of start-up delays, they are finally closing the deal, but the customers are suffering greatly. It is taking weeks or even months to get installation orders complete because the new guys don't know what they are doing and Verizon has no obligation to help them.

It is going to get worse before it gets better. A QWest-Verizon merger would make the big two become Verizon and at&t. Quest having more geographical territory, coupled with Verizon's ownership of their Bell Atlantic and GTE territories would make them the clear leader in the race. A merger would likely retain the at&t name for fun, but the customers would be royally screwed in the long run. Let's hope that never happens.

Not that it matters. We pay, we pay, we pay and we can't live without them. Then we go back in time to 1984 and the government starts breaking up "the new at&t" again.

bash
Posted By: harold endean Re: Fios....... - 03/13/09 02:11 PM
John,



What did the DCA say? Did Suzanne say that Vios is not part of the "Utility" company? If that is so, good luck trying to get them to pull permits. I have a hard time trying to get regular voice/data people to get permits. The alarm people are getting better about permits, but telco people still hate permits in my town.
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Fios....... - 03/13/09 02:17 PM
Harold:
Letter dated 3/5/09; DCA, 2 pages; NOT from Susan B.; from Cynthia W., Director

PM/E-mail me a fax # & I'll get it to you.

Fun at the OK coral time.....
Posted By: sparky Re: Fios....... - 03/14/09 11:36 AM
i never did understand the utility loophole to do whatever they wanted to ~S~
Posted By: renosteinke Re: Fios....... - 03/14/09 06:26 PM
Well, youshould ...both as a sparky and as a citizen.

First, the PoCo operates, in many ways, as a governing body. This means that, among other things, that THEY are the AHJ, and other governments have no jurisdiction. I mean ... do you want clearance rules written by folks who might actually know something about the topic, or by bird watchers?

As a sparky, you should know that electricity acts differently at different voltages and frequencies. As a result, practices that work fine in your home can be quite deadly in a substation.

Finally, keep in mind that our understanding of electricity is quite recent .... even for us, many of our "normal" things did not exist, even in the 60's. "Standard" plug patterns, NEMA enclosures .... the listis endless.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Fios....... - 03/14/09 09:02 PM
I think he was referring to things telecom folks do inside your house.
Posted By: renosteinke Re: Fios....... - 03/15/09 12:37 AM
Good point, Greg.

As the work the telephone company does within your home ... it might help to remember that such was not addressed, at all, by the NEC until fairly recently. The 80's? 90's? I'm not sure. Prior to the breakup of the Bell System, the phone company asserted ownership, and control over, ALL telephone equipment.

Today, the 2008 NEC specifies that new construction come with at least one phone jack - suggesting that the sparky is expected to install it.

Things sure have changed.
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Fios....... - 03/20/09 12:25 AM
The tele/data guys are basically under control here, cable in multi family is a issue with permits, and Fios is going to be a nightmare IMHO. Not for single family dwellings thankfully, but in the multi familys, they will need a permit.

The 'one phone jack' will probably be amended out of the '08 when NJ adopts it.

BTW, the State Attorney General filed suit against Verizon Fios today for consumer fraud type violations.

Guess that's why I could not get any firm answer on cost after the $90 intro 12 months.
Posted By: Jim M Re: Fios....... - 03/20/09 02:39 AM
From my limited exposure to the FIOS it just seems like a large NID that needs to be plugged in. There didn't seem to be any interior wirng needed. It was still copper to the wall jacks that was in place already.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Fios....... - 03/20/09 02:48 AM
800.156 just says "communication outlet" and these days I would think that was a Cat 5 or better. I agree POTS phones are going to be a shrinking presence in homes but there will be some kind of "communication" going on.
A builder with any regard for his customer would have a drop in virtually every room. I have 6 PCs and a printer on my network all the time.
I also agree this probably does not belong in an electrical "safety" code.
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Fios....... - 03/20/09 02:57 AM
Greg:
Yes, most EC's doing new work do cable/Cat5 wiring now, and have for some years. They would be fools not to, it's $$$.

A few were jumping up & down at a CEU I did re: mandatory comm point 800.156.

To those that screamed, I said (off the record) that as the code does not specify a location....drop it in the garage or basement, or any inside wall on the utility drop side.

Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Fios....... - 03/20/09 01:28 PM
Fios complaint form is online at DCA website...home page, center is a link to the on-line complaint form.

Guess our AG is serious about the suit for consumer fraud.


www.njconsumeraffairs.gov

Posted By: hbiss Re: Fios....... - 03/20/09 06:53 PM
Yes, most EC's doing new work do cable/Cat5 wiring now, and have for some years. They would be fools not to, it's $$$... I said (off the record) that as the code does not specify a location....drop it in the garage or basement, or any inside wall on the utility drop side.

That's NOT the answer I would want to hear. Do it for the money and don't give a crap about your work.

-Hal
Posted By: brianl703 Re: Fios....... - 03/20/09 09:02 PM
Originally Posted by Jim M
From my limited exposure to the FIOS it just seems like a large NID that needs to be plugged in. There didn't seem to be any interior wirng needed. It was still copper to the wall jacks that was in place already.


They run wiring from the power supply to the battery box and from there to the ONT.

From my limited exposure to FIOS it appears that they have real grunts installing it. These guys are barely above the dish network installers on the give-a-crap scale.
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Fios....... - 03/20/09 09:26 PM
HBiss (Hal):

You ommitted parts of my comments......

What point are you trying to make to me????
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