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Posted By: luckyshadow learned a lesson today - 01/21/09 11:28 PM
I learned a lesson today -
I learned ( or was reminded of) that you should always know who your talking to.
I inspected a job yesterday and turned it down for not having the commercial kitchen receptacles GFCI protected and panel schedules that were not descriptive enough. (They just stated Recepts. and lights.)
The EC said that that's how it's on the drawings.( both the lack of GFCIS & panel schedules) Asked him if he wanted me show it to him in the NEC and he said NO. Told him to correct it and call it in again.
Went there today to look at it again and this time there was more suits running around then I could count. I looked at the panels and was testing the GFCI's in the kitchen when some man came in and started a conversation about the job. He asked me if It was really necessary to have all those receptacles GFCI protected and wasn't what was on the approved drawings good enough? I told him no that the engineer should have known better then to draw it that way and that as far as the panel schedules go, I feel that is were the engineers fail. They know, or should know the NEC therefore they should know to be descriptive when it comes to the panel schedules.
That's when he handed me his card - He was the engineer that drew the drawings. He was on site doing a punch list.
Would I have changed my statement had I known who he was first? Not really, I would like to think I would have found a better way to say it though.
Posted By: Steve Miller Re: learned a lesson today - 01/22/09 12:02 AM
Next time you're in this situation, keep in mind the definition of "tact": it's defined as the ability to tell a man to go to h*** and make him look forward to the trip smile
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: learned a lesson today - 01/22/09 02:13 AM
Been there, done that! Debates on plan review, or jobsite meetings with architects and/or engineers have resulted in a few situations of unknown identity. The PE who had 6-3phase HVAC feeders in one conduit...asked about derating..he said.."how about a bigger pipe?" LOL

Tact is becoming a second language.

Posted By: Trumpy Re: learned a lesson today - 01/22/09 02:52 AM
Now, I'm not looking to start a flame war here, but,
why should people with trade experience have to bite their lip when things like this happen?.

The reason the "engineer" is drawing the plans, is supposed to be because they know what they are doing??

Is it a requirement that EE's have some time in the field to see what actually goes on, or is it just read out of a book or learned at a university lecture?
Posted By: renosteinke Re: learned a lesson today - 01/22/09 07:46 AM
Mike, an EE has absolutely no requirement, in any college curriculum, to take any courses related to code requirements .... none at all. Even the courses aimed at 'power distribution' are deemed to be for those not 'good enough' to go into microchip design.

More on-topic, I remember the scene in Henry V, where the king poses as a commoner, to gauge the morale of his troops. It's a good thing for the office folks to get 'the straight dope' once in a while.

As for the contractor ... shame on him! He ought to have been raising cain through the course of the job, calling out those goofs. Playing dumb, then harvesting the change order, just isn't professional, IMO. "just following directions" might pass for the apprentice - but not the master!
Posted By: Roger Re: learned a lesson today - 01/22/09 12:54 PM
I think the engineer will probably come out of this with an education. (at least he should)

It is true that an EE would not have to know much if anything at all the NEC but, when they decide to go into building design things change and it becomes mandatory that they do.

I certainly wouldn't feel bad about the way you said anything.

Roger
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: learned a lesson today - 01/22/09 02:18 PM
Yes, I have found over the years that there are some EE's/PE's that have very little knowledge of 'power'. Thet are 'electronics' guys; chips, circuit boards, etc., that type of electrical.

I also have to agree with Roger, many have gained electrical power knowledge from discussions/debates over the years.

Years back, one very knowledgeable EE (a principal at a chip tool facility) had a debate with me as an EC. He insisted that his house had a 120 amp service, 120/240 3-wire. He could not grasp that it was 60 amp max at 240 volt. "Why should I upgrade to 400 amp??" as I proposed a new 200 amp service. That was 3 days of 'debate' until he got it.

Posted By: SteveFehr Re: learned a lesson today - 01/22/09 06:53 PM
Not every engineer is a smart engineer. I've met some dumb-as-sticks people that I wonder how they managed to graduate college and we all just cringe and feel sorry for anyone working with them. But the vast majority are usually very good, especially those who stick strictly to their areas of expertise.

There's a good bit of overlap of knowledge between engineers and electricians, but each has their own speciality. I mean, an engineer's probably not going to know how to grease a cable, and an electrician's not likely to be able to spec out a K-factor transformer. As I'm fond of saying, engineers know what to do, electricians know how to do it. Makes for a very synergistic team when everyone is involved and leverage off all our strengths and weaknesses. The code is the middle ground, but there's a LOT of code and it's damned hard to know it all.

Besides, y'all are blowing one tiny little problem (like this GFCI thing) out of proportion! After all, it was only one minor mistake, and something like that would be easy for any of us to do wink We learn every day.
Posted By: renosteinke Re: learned a lesson today - 01/22/09 08:02 PM
You will note that I had some unkind thoughts for the EC .... I know not the 'back story,' but I simply can't understand an EC 'simply following the plans' and not catching the errors.

While I am far from perfect, I can't run a circuit without knowing what that circuit is supoposed to do; if I have reservations (loading, routing, device positioning, etc.), I just HAVE to ask!
Posted By: Zapped Re: learned a lesson today - 01/22/09 08:24 PM
Oh boy, is this a sore subject.

I think you should ignore tact and give these idiots both barrels - they charge huge sums of money, then expect everyone else to do their job for them. The contractors make about a 5th of what the engineers make, hence the overpriced suits.

In this instance, both the contractor and the engineer are at fault. BOTH the engineer AND the contractor should have know better.
Posted By: luckyshadow Re: learned a lesson today - 01/22/09 11:57 PM
I agree with Trumpy - The EC should know that GFCI protection is required in a commercial kitchen.If the EC does pick up that the GFCI protection was overlooked by the engineer AND plan review then I think he should do the proper thing and call it out on a Request For Information form. Do it correct the first time. I'm sure the EC would still be able to argue for the extra cost. He should also know better then to do a panel schedule that states nothing more then Lights and Receptacles.
It also irritates me that the engineers draw the panel schedules the same way. Would it be that much more of a hassle to to add some room numbers to the schedule on the prints?

But the original post was about me not quite being as tactful as I could have been. I won't say I put my entire foot in my mouth but I did get a taste of what a wolverine boot tastes like smile
Posted By: Ann Brush Re: learned a lesson today - 01/23/09 12:13 AM
Focus on WHAT is wrong and WHY, not WHO.

Originally Posted by Zapped
I think you should ignore tact and give these idiots both barrels - they charge huge sums of money, then expect everyone else to do their job for them. The contractors make about a 5th of what the engineers make, hence the overpriced suits.


This is a typical response that's both bull headed and ignorant, charging huge sums of money generally indicates that huge sums of money have been spent on legitimate business costs and does not necessarily mean taking home huge sums of money. I see few engineers out there making a killing, In general most of us work hard for a living and carry considerable risk certifying tests etc that we perform, we expect to be compensated for that but few of us are going to be retiring at 55 or even close. Engineering firms run their businesses just like you all do, paying attention to the legitimate costs and charging accordingly, we face competition like everybody else.

In this particular case we can all see WHY there is a need for inspection. Thank goodness he was doing his job correctly.
Posted By: renosteinke Re: learned a lesson today - 01/23/09 12:39 AM
Phooey on the 'what' and 'why.' I'll make my claim that the 'who' needs it brought to their attention. Accountability is what is often lacking.

Otherwise, an engineers' stamp is nothing but a fancy way to wrinkle paper. It's their responsibility - so let them take the hits.
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: learned a lesson today - 01/23/09 01:20 AM
Lucky:
Tact and shoeleather aside...I have to ask; was any mention made as to if the GFI item was noted on Plan Review?

Posted By: ghost307 Re: learned a lesson today - 01/23/09 03:40 PM
I like the RFI approach. If the answer changes the receptacles to GFI, the Change Order will be unquestioned. If the answer is to leave them as drawn, the Engineer gets the hit, and you still get paid to change them out. If there is some obscure reason (or Special Permission) for that unique instance, at least you've acted like the knowledagble Trademan that you are and brought the matter up for review.

BTW, I agree that the Panel Schedule on the plans should have been done in a non-lazy approach, but I usually avoid room numbers until the very last revision. Architects just love to renumber rooms each time they tweak a layout...I like to wait until there's almost no chance that the tags will be changing again before I do the detailed circuit tags.
Posted By: sabrown Re: learned a lesson today - 01/23/09 06:03 PM
I am glad that Luckyshadow caught the error. I also agree with Ann on focusing on the what and why, not the who. Who is not always clear and may involve many in ways not clear.

I have also noted from personal experience that when I focus on the who, the who often never hear the what and why because they are busy defending themselves or others.

Years ago, I did not hear the problem and solution when handed to me by a lowly plant Engineer, because I was busy defending my senior Electrical Engineers design of an electronic sensor that I had appoved, tested, and passed the instrument. After I was working elsewhere, I learned in retrospect that the man was right due to a borderline power supply issue.

I now have also had my electricians loyally defend me and my designs to others - reading them the riot act. I would rather take the time to discuss with those involved the what, why, and codes involved so that we all can learn, including myself for I can not claim Popal infallability.

I want to thank all those who over the years have found problems in my designs and have brought them to my attention, and those who have wondered why I have done things the way I have and asked why. I also thank all of you here who take the time to ask questions and respond and discuss issues so that we all can be bettter educated. I have been to engineering forums and maybe I should stay and help them but it is here that I visit due to your overall professionalism.

It all comes down to respecting others in my mind. Remember three rules we all learned in kindergarten:
1- Don't yell at me.
2- Get along with others.
3- Clean up after yourself.
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