Just have to hear it from the field. How many people out there have installed AF Breakers? Any problems with tripping? Any horror stories? Anybody have a tripped breaker that they went back out to and found a problem? I would like to hear anybody about any story about arc fault breakers.

Thank you!

Harold:
We have a 55+ condo developement that has AFCI CB's for the bedrooms. It was 'per spec' install as AFCI is not mandatory (yet).

To the best of my knowledge, there have been no issues. Yes, this is new construction.

I've only had one job with AFCI's ....

For the most part, they went in with no problems that a little troubleshooting couldn't quickly find and fix.

One of the bedroom lighting circuits was a different matter, though. No matter how we searched, we could not find the cause of the triping. In the end, we cheated, put in a regular breaker, and simply labled it 'lighting.'

We speculate that the complexity of the circuit ..... a multitude of dimmers, three-way switches, and fan/light combos .... may have been the cause of the problem.

That job was a good five years ago - I try not to get involved in new home construction - and things have worked well so far.

I have put in several of them.

In new resi, there are unually no problems if it is wired correctly(no shared neutrals). I had to troubleshoot my own wiring once. Took me several hours(up and down the stairs to reset the breaker)until I finally found a shared neutral in a switch box. I learned that lesson. More of a problem is just bad breakers. I will put power on the house and they won't hold. I replace it and everything is good.

The bigger problem is remodels and additions. You can't just find a hot in the attic or crawl somewhere and tap on because you don't know how its wired.

The last issue is panel space. With the 08 code, you can end up with several afci breakers in the panel. They are not small but rather crowd into the neutral and ground bars.

I don't have any real horror stories, just a bunch of "Ahh Crap" stories.

For at least the last 4 years, we've had to put them on all bedroom circuits here in Orange County, CA. This usually requires 2 to 4 AFCI's per panel.

As Reno stated, I have also had problems with the lighting circuits, and dimmers seem to be the common thread when those problems arise. I'm not an engineer, but it seems to me that perhaps chopping the wave form, as most dimmers do, creates a "bug" for the AFCI system that causes problematic tripping.

I also got a call about a month after completion of a new construction home related to a constantly tripping AFCI breaker. I performed every test imaginable, including a megger, on the home-run portion of the circuit, and each branch (while isolated), and was unable to find a problem. A new AFCI lasted about another month before it started doing the same thing. I had to finally conclude that something the resident was plugging in was causing the problem, and just replaced the unit with a standard breaker. Problem solved, although I'll admit to cheating it.

Conclusion? AFCIs are not completely ready for the '08 NEC requirement. There are technical issues that the manufacturers need to iron out and, IMHO, the NEC jumped the gun on this one.

Also, there's the issue of panel space. They have yet to develop/release a tandum AFCI.

I avoid new construction too, but since I really only do service work anymore, I encounter a lot of problems with installations done by others. Most recently, I went to a pretty big house (2 yrs. old) that had three 200 amp, 40 ckt. panels. The original EC put all heavy loads (furnaces, heat pumps, ranges, etc.) in one panel, GPA and medium-duty circuits in the second one and all lighting/SA circuits in the third. There were eight AFCI breakers all together on one side of the panel that were tripping randomly and for no apparent reason. These were Square D QO panels.

I couldn't find anything wrong, so I contacted Square D. About a week later, they contacted me and suggested that I separate the AFCI breakers by one space to see what happened. There was plenty of room in the panel to do this, so all I needed to do was put in some blank filler plates. I wasn't crazy about doing this since it threw the load balance off, so I did the same thing on the other side of the panel with the standard breakers, just staggering them on opposite poles.

We never had another problem after that. They suggested that we try to minimize grouping AFCI breakers side-by side for more than two at a time due to potential heat. I never followed up after that except to stick to that rule with any brand from there on-out.

I'm a bit of a perfectionist, so I'd prefer to keep all similar breaker types grouped together. I like to start at the top with the two-pole breakers, largest on top. I then like to start at the bottom of the panel with single-pole 15's, then 20's above those. Any blank spaces are left in the middle so growth can fill in while still maintaining this arrangement. I guess I'll have to adapt.

Did it fix anything

So when the next NEC requires AFCI for nearly every circuit in the house, how will you stagger the breakers?

That's what the 84-circuit panels are for...

I've installed 2, one for the lights and smokes in my bedroom and one for general circuits. Haven't had any real issues. I do have to run an extension cord outside the bedroom to run my treadmill. It will trip the AFCI everytime

"So when the next NEC requires AFCI for nearly every circuit in the house, how will you stagger the breakers? "

Actually I brought that up in a comment on the 2008 and NFPA rejected it as unfounded. They refuse to believe there would be a problem with a panel, stuffed with AFCIs, even at ambients approaching 40c.

John, will figure out why I asked the question. It is because here in NJ we are getting ready to adopt the '08 NEC. I still don't think that the AF breakers have proven their reliability. Since NJ doesn't require them yet, I need some of the people out there who have used them. Right now NJ will adopt the '08 and use AF breakers on new construction only. We have a separate code for rehab houses. Anymore stories out there? I would like to know them. Thanks.

They've been required and used in Chicago since 2000.
Most of the problems that I see are caused by sharing neutrals (old habits die hard) and by plugging in loads that cause the AFCI breakers to trip.

So when do the 84 circuit panels start to show up in the regular markets rather than the underground?

Anyone know of any bad experiences (false trips) when a large UPS (1200 VA) serving computers is connected to a circuit protected by an AFCI breaker? How about a small neon indicator lamp?

The kind of UPS I am interested in the effects from is the "dual conversion continuous online" type, that is always converting the input AC to an internal DC, paralleling with the internal battery through some control circuit, and then converting that DC back to near-sine-wave AC to supply its outlets.

They make AFCI breakers rated for 1200kVA? I don't think it's a requirement, though you'd likely have to have ground fault protection built into the switchgear serving it. I've seen some problems with harmonics from the UPS rectifier in a pair of 500kVA UPSs causing relays in the switchgear to go nuts (my kingdom for a PLC!), but installing input filter cabinets fixed it. There's no hard and fast rule, but I like to spec out UPSs with less than 13% THD if it's a significant % of the generator/building load. Some of the better 12-switch UPSs meet it inherently, but nearly all 6-switch rectifiers (VFD, UPS or otherwise) need to have an input filter or the THD is just ridiculous.

Edit: wait, 1200VA or 1200kVA? You threw me off when you said "large" instead of "desktop"!

It's "large" in the sense that it is larger than the stuff you might buy at places like Best Buy or Circuit City. It took 2 people to lift it, probably due to having dual batteries inside, same as the next higher capacity unit that requires a dedicated circuit.

I haven't heard of computers causing AFCI issues, so I'm assuming modern PSUs are clean enough.

I've had to install them since around 2002 ish.
We started by protecting just the bedroom receptacle circuits as per the 99 code but later included all outlets.

I've been using GE in both single pole and two pole in new construction and I can't say anyone has reported a nuisance trip.

I recently used CH type BR in an addition and had one trip a couple of times. The first time I suspect my fat finger hit the trip button as I was closing the panel but the second one is still unexplained.

I've always grouped them together with no problems.

The biggest problem (other than high cost and completely changing how I might design my circuits) is the space they eat up in a 20/40 or a 12/24.

I've long believed that it would be a better panel design that would integrate the neutral bus along side the non-neutral bus, and allow breakers to have 2 connections into the bus, instead of just 1. That would eliminate all the pigtails that panels are going to be full of in the coming years. But such a thing would be an all new standard most likely incompatible with what exists now. So it is unlikely any manufacturer would want to switch to it.

.. incompatable ...

Funny, it actually seems that some firms - Square D in particular - do all they can to ensure that their panels are unique.

Don't encourage them

I know this is an old thread but, the OP sked for AFCI horror stories. I'm in the middle of one.

Wired new home Master bd rm, bath on one AFCI, 2 bed rms and bath on another.

No problems after wiring house
A couple months later hm owner says Mst bd.rm. tripping intermitantly.

Swapped the two AFCI positions.

A few weeks later the 2 bd. rms. breaker is tripping, but not the mstr. bd. rm.

Replaced both breakers.

2 bd. rms. trip anytime you turn on more than one light.

Checked the next day, could not get brker to trip.

Went back in the evening after hm. owner called could not get breaker to hold.

I've wired many AFCIs in the past and have had a problem with tripping but never this intermittant stuff.
Used two wire home runs, and GE brkrs

Any ideas
Thanks Mark

The only thing I can think of is see if the home owner is using a piece of equipment that was moved from the other circuit. A hair dryer, or vaccum, etc.

By the NEC, the bathrooms cannot be wired to the bedrooms.

210.11(C)(3) Bathroom Branch Circuits.
In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, at least one 20-ampere branch circuit shall be provided to supply bathroom receptacle outlet(s). Such circuits shall
have no other outlets.

Bathroom receptacle is on seperate 20a. cir.
Lights and fan only on AFCI.

This is only a guess, but could the fan motor be arcing internally?
Perhaps only not everybody uses the fan when they shower.
Try unplugging the fan for a few days and see if the problem goes away.

Bruce

Thanks Bruce good idea.
I went over yesterday and checked all sw. and plug connection.

Checked voltage at panel 255v. A-B 127to N.
Maybe a fluckuation triggering AFCI?

It may be days before any tripping.

When I was checking connections, I drew a visable-audible arc several times but AFCI didn't trip. I've experienced this on other houses I've wired, but without the problems of this house.

Find it interesting that it wouldn't trip.

This may be an off the wall idea but how about swapping the AFCI out for a GFCI to figure out if this is a ground fault problem or an arc problem. It might help you narrow it down.

If ever a technology encouraged extension cords between rooms, this is it. We've had problems with lights, but usually related to the switch or a bulb that burns out. Plug-in devices that trip an AFCI are appliances with built-in switches or thermostats, like irons, heaters and vacuums.

Since you had a problem in the evening, it makes me wonder about light bulbs. Are any CFL lamps or fluorescent ballasts involved?

I would have to ask the question:
Why is it that only the US use this sort of device, when no other electrical people around the rest of the world, feel the need to?

Mike,
It is because the powers that be in America allow manufacturers and their reps to sit on the code council. Now the manufacturers just dream up something like arc fault breakers, then get them written into the code, no worries about selling them. Basically the same story as it always is in USA, if you need an answer for anything just follow the money trail.

Actually the Canadian Electrical Code requires AFCI protected circuits for all bedroom receptacles.

Bruce

Trumpy,

Wire Twister has the right answer. It is all about the money. However is this a "Conflict of Interest"? Wasn't there a problem years ago when a certain wire company got Aluminum wire approved to be used in houses? Remember what happened then? I also think that a code change every 3 years is too short. What is wrong with a code change every 5 or 6 years. I don't get the chance to write to the NEC code panel because I don't use the new code until a year or two later.

Well, Trumpy, some folks might say the US has the AFCI breakers first because we are the world leader, and just that far ahead of everyone else.

Right.

These are the same folks who argue we should have tamper resistant receptacles because those other 'backwards' countries have them.

And we'll overlook the folks who still oppose nuclear power, even though it's been quite thoroughly mastered by the unwashed French - even the 'breeder' reactors.

I prefer using as an analogy an inexperienced backpacker.

The novice will pack an ax - he might need to chop some wood. Then a shovel - for digging a hole. A pick - in case he hits a rock. A mallet, for driving in stakes. A pry bar for pulling them out. Etc. Before you know it, the poor guy has a pack you can lift only with a crane.

That's what our code is becoming ... an unweildy collection of well-intentioned requirements meant to make things a 'little' safer. The result will be like that 500lb. backpack- irrelevant. Yet every piece will be added by someone unwilling to step back, unwilling to admit that they are part of the problem.

Probably the worst offenders, though, are those who seek to build their design preferences into the code. We see this, for example, in the recent rules that greatly restrict - even eliminate - the use of multi-wire branch circuits in homes. A practice that I can prove has been used, in homes, since 1940 is suddenly 'too complicated' for the homeowner.

I hate to say it, but when it comes to AFCI's, "the fix is in." The only way to get AFCI's out of the code is to stop adopting the NEC, even to the extent of writing your own code, rather than modifying the NEC. As long as those codebook dollars keep coming in, they'll keep printing them.

Harold:
Yes, the adoption cycle of codes here is perplexing, but something we have to live with.

Coming up soon, will be 2011 changes, and 9 hrs! Then a year+ to forget the 9 hrs.!

Discovered that the home owner had put in CFLs at the front porch lights that were also on PC. Porch is not on AFCI circuit. Removed CFL and disconnected PC. Haven't heard from them for a week. Keeping my eyes crossed.

Thanks All
Mark

Something to look forward to!!

Hey Reno! I have an occasional bath even if I don't need one!
I can however assure our reader that the French tradition of total soap-dodging is alive and well here. If we get too near a true afficionado of eyewatering off the geiger scale body-fog in a checkout queue, we go round the mart again and come back when it's safe to do so!
Napolean once wrote to Josephine from Egypt, after the rotten Brits had sunk his entire fleet for a bit of fun; "Coming home - don't wash!" A three week trip in those days - Romantic or what !!!

Alan:

???? care to kindly explain?

Alan is responding to my good-natured jest above about the 'unwashed French."

Naturally, the real intent of my comment was to be critical of the anti-nuclear activists here in the USA.

Reno, it might be helpful if AFCI breakers were explained for the benefit of those of us not au fait with them, being a US-only device.
I might add that 99.9% of folks here have excellent personal hygene, so don't be put off by my remarks if you want to vacation in the Hexagon!

AFCIs are devices that purport to detect arcs and shut down the circuit. They often get compared to GFCIs (RCD for you folks) when people resist the change. The major difference is that ground fault devices are designed to a definite standard. A certain leakage will trip them. On the other hand AFCIs do not have any standard for what an arc really is and use proprietary methodologies to identify arcs. Something that will trip one brand may not be detected by another brand and there is no universal testing method. Even if the manufacturer was selling a tester for their device, it would really just be testing their method of detecting arcs, not whether another arcing situation would be detected.

A very good point, Alan.

It is claimed that new technology is capable of identifyiny whether electricity is being used to, say, run a motor, or to make an arc.

It was posited that many electrical fires start when a wire is xomehow damaged - leading either to an ard between two different wires (parallel arc) or between halves of a broken wire (series arc).

Therefore, in 1995 a campaign was started to require the use of this new technology in our homes. We call this "AFCI protection," or 'arc fault circuit interrupter protection.'

Mind you, this is different from the principles used by RCD, GFI, overcurrent, and overload protection. Currently, it is available only as part of a circuit breaker.

The entire subject is still a matter of contention; the devices and code requirements have both had major revisions.

When troubleshooting this and other AFCI circuits I have removed a wire nut with a load, and have drawn a visible audible arc with out tripping the breaker. GE Breaker.
If I still smoked I'd light a cig. with it.

What happens in the case of a machine which runs an arc as part of its design, such as burner ignition electrodes or an arc welder?

Alan, I really wish I could answer your question .... it's certainly a fair one. There are also a number of other things I'd like to try; say, a Jacobs' ladder, put a carbon electrode on a track and make a solid line-power arc, a motor with brushes, etc. Even a variac. I'd also like to set up a number of dimmers (and other electronic controls) that seem to be associated with troubleshooting problems.

I'd love to be able to create a variety of arcs, both 'series' and 'parallel,' just to see what arcs, if any, are actually detected by the infernal devices.

Alas, I lack the resources. I have a sneaking suspicion, though, that such a demonstration would make waves at the local inspectors' meeting - especially when the AFCI rep comes around for his tri-annual sales pitch.

one could have broken the hot on plate steel and welded one's name with the first generation of afci's Reno...

they did get better with the 2nd generation, but they are still an inexact science as far as parameters go

and we are, imho, not a trade that really tolerates that well

nor would any business get far selling a product on nefarious definitions

quick q here, how many of you are stuffing panels, i mean the majority of breakers afci's out there?

it's common for me pack 30 into a 40 cir panel

that's $1200 (my cost) of afci's

now, what i want to know here, and i want to ask it of the EC's out there having to sell this is,

exactly what are you telling your customers who your informing of this cost?

and please don't fall back and hide behind the old 'it's the code' answer

customers don't buy blind authority any more than we do...

~S~

sparky:
AFCI's are now required here, guess you could say 'finally', and they will start showing up as the permits approved after 10/06/09 are built.

The rest of the country where they have been required, with the postings & comments here are preparing me for the arrival!

As to 'explanations', I have to use the old 'it's the new code'; and 'it's a device similar to the GFCI/GFI intended to improve your safety'; 'research is available on the web from various organizations and mfgs explaining the technology'....etc.

The wider scale installs will be here, but I can't say I'm looking for it with great anticipation.

i usually hand them the paperwork with a similar line HotOne. it occured to me that, if an inspector can ask me to validate any given electrical widget toward an application, why can't the public ask the creators?

the downside, of course, is if they are able to digest all the techno babble.

i say lay it on the manufacturer's , THEY , need to bear the onus of responsibility validating their majic bullet, not us the EC's out there

~S~

Just a general note .. I think this thread has drifted a bit, and we need to get back on-track.

The OP was a request for stories regarding problems with AFCI's.

When folks from outside the USA asked just what we were talking about, I did my best to explain, in simple terms, what AFCI's are maent to accomplish.

Please, let's keep the discussion on-target. We have had many threads discussing the entire issue - it certainly has been a controversial one - and everyone ought to know that I have some pretty strong opinions on the topic. I have not shared them in this thread, as they were not relevant to the OP.

If you want to discuss the various twists and turns in the AFCI story, please start a new thread. If you want to discuss the 'political' aspects, or allege misrepresentation by the prompters, that's another topic for another thread.

As for the actual field performance of AFCI's: There have been all manner of assertions that certain appliances or devices are incompatable with AFCI's. This is countered by NEMA asserting that they have not received any such complaints at all, that every 'problem' has been traced to faulting wiring practices. The OP has asked us to provide such stories.

Where have you had trouble with AFCI's?

We will be adopting the 08' at the years end. Has there been a certain brand AFCI that is less susceptable to problematic tripping from peoples experiences?

you've gotta be kidding Reno

do you really expect us to believe here that there ALL related problems are our wiring methods?

lemme give you a heads up, NEMA works for who?

as to associated problems in the field, you'll note that the specs say 'no meggers'

but these jems are across the line 365/24/7

and no, the manufacturer , or the supplier won't be sympathetic to dirty power or lightning strikes when you call up with $1000 of bad ones


what i recommend is a meter/main , if possible , with some manner of surge protection ahead of them all

~S~

No, I'm not kidding; that is NEMA's 's official response.

The only way to counter that is with DATA ... not speculation, guesses, or war stories. We need to compile accounts that read like this: "I took a new, fresh out of the box, UL listed appliance, plugged it in to and AFCI protected receptacle under test bench conditions, and the AFCI tripped repeatedly. This happened with several different AFCI's, and of different makes. Evaluation of the appliance by its' manufacturer found no fault with the appliance."

Another type of data might be "The AFCI never tripped until I replaced the light switch with a "Brand L" dimmer / occupancy sensor / bottle opener, after which the AFCI refused to set. Manufacturer "L" tells me this is a common problem, and they advise against using their switches on AFCI-protected circuits."

THAT's the sort of statement we need to make. Until we can produce such data, the "AFCI steamroller" is just going to keep rolling over the committee.

Is this what I (and Harold) have to look forward to?

so your insinuating anecdotals will move cmp-2 to further consider afci's in some respect here Reno?

if i recall 210-12 became the poster-code for ROP's shortly after it's debute

in fact, i'd wager that one specific article attracted more rop's than any other, and perhaps even reaching up into the top 10 rop's (volume wise) in code history.

some of them were EE level, and quite well written btw, many came from debates on line as well

didn't amount to a whole lot, did it? In fact, it seems we got the runaround over the simplest of requests, like series/parallel clarification

i would suggest, if anyone has copies, for that to be a good starting point, if only for fruitful debate

~S~

yeah, sorry but if your state hasn't gone through the afci evolution, you may find it's a tad painful event as an EC, or even an AHJ HotOne

perhaps it'll sugar off to some sanguine relationship eventually.

on a good note, i recently had an insurance company make a compromise on old K&T wiring, via introducing afci protection

cost of rewire- $8K-10K

cost of afci protection $500 +/-

~S~

As I said before, debating AFCI's is for a new thread. If anyone wants that discussion, start the thread.

The OP of this thread asked for some real-world problems. I provided one. Others are welcome to contribute.

P.S.: You might check the names behind a few of those AFCI proposals. "Steinke" is not a common name, especially in Reno, Nv.

got linky Reno?

~S~

I have seen Amish Electric in the ROP

real world problems ?

well that might be taken as problems we have with the real world Reno....

however, here's a tip that you fella's ought to know, and get on early

if your wiring a dwelling, and like to spark up various home runs for the trim guys, leave the afci's out of it

they can't take the repeated punch of power tools for weeks on end

~S~

One i heard from a reputable inspector with 40 odds yrs on the trade

He viewed my panel, which i try my best to make neat and workmanlike with the standard herringbone arrangement and said 'i don't think the manufacturer wishes those afci pigtails straightened out there'

~S~