ECN Forum
Posted By: master66 Violation after Violation - 11/12/02 01:10 AM
As most of you know, I am working for a large electrical contractor after giving up my business of 10 years.

I have been frustrated to see work installed on a couple of jobs that violates the NEC.

This is stuff that isn't necessarily unsafe but it just isn't right and I would have never done this in my own business.

In most cases the supervisor not only knows about it but is the one telling the others to install it that way.

Examples:
- Troughs / Pull boxes WAY undersized.
- 3" EMT conduit entering a pull box through a concrete floor using compression connectors with the compression nuts removed (because they wouldn't fit through the cored hole) secured with duct tape.
- oversized flex/MC box connectors used on #2 MC feeders.
- #12-2 / 12-3 / 14-2 MC not secured properly. Secured with cable ties to sprinkler lines and plumbing lines. Not secured within 12" of boxes and tied only to other cables for support.
- (Almost forgot) 3" PVC adapted to 3" GRC with a PVC coupling pounded over the unthreaded end of the GRC.

Am I just "Nit-picking" ?

[This message has been edited by master66 (edited 11-11-2002).]
Posted By: Wirenuttt Re: Violation after Violation - 11/12/02 01:38 AM
I know where your at. It's injustice to the ones who work according to workmans like manner, not only for code puposes, but for piece of mind. It's hard fighting these guys out there in big companies if their policies are good fast and cheap. There's not much I feel you can do, you'll only end up looking like the bad guy if they are all against you.
Posted By: sparky Re: Violation after Violation - 11/12/02 01:59 AM
I've also worked for similar companies, i sense the 'tude is that if nobody notices just do it....
Posted By: sparky66wv Re: Violation after Violation - 11/12/02 03:05 AM
M'66

Let me guess, you're working in West Virginia...

I worked three weeks for an outfit whose EC's favorite phrase was "see no evil" when I confronted him with questionable practices...

Another who said (I mentioned somewhere before) if it lasts a year, it'll be a service call (but that was in Wisconsin)...

Two more that I thought were "code geeks" like us, but turned out to be snowing me...

It's the main reason I became determined to do this on my own.
Posted By: EDW Re: Violation after Violation - 11/12/02 06:11 AM
No master66 I don't think your "nit picking"
I think you take pride in your work, somthing
we could use alot more of in this bussiness and this country. I too have seen some pretty
bad things out there and can only say that the only thing we have to sell as profesionals is our work. If you can,t take pride in what you do it ain't worth doing, so in turn theres times I've had to walk.Just my opinion.
Posted By: nesparky Re: Violation after Violation - 11/12/02 06:12 AM
Now you know why bids are so low. These clowns doing that type of work are easily able to under bid those who plan it right.
The bad part of it is the AHJ,s let them get away with it because their " THE BIG BOYS".
I have seen this too many times in more than one area/state. Junky work make all of us look bad.
Those of us who try and plan to do work correctly are getting under bid by these short cutters.
Posted By: gramps Re: Violation after Violation - 11/12/02 11:28 AM
i know exactly what your saying! i got fired from a large "merit" shop once, for taking too many manhours to do a job, and for using materials the estimator hadnt figured into his bid, causing the company to lose money on the jobs i did. no one mentioned the fact that all of my final inspections were successful, and that the customers were pleased with the work. that seemed secondary to the company's philosophy of doing the job cheap and fast the first trip, then charging for an additional service call, when we have to go back and fix it right.
btw, this particular company "prides" itself in the large numbers of young apprentices it signs off on each year, compared to other shops in the area. makes the future kinda scary, doesnt it?

on a final note, the guys doing the estimating and bidding for this company are not electricians at all.....they were hardware store salesmen or wholesale sales reps., before becoming "highly qualified" electrical estimators.........go figure.. [Linked Image]
Posted By: electure Re: Violation after Violation - 11/12/02 12:53 PM
A lot of my job involves warranty work.
I see all the "little nasties" that are done by the crews. When I report these to the company, they are noted, more vigorously when it's cost the company $$$. Often these are passed on to the crews with a warning not to do it again. More often than not, the guys in the field ignore them (Have you ever heard "That's the way we always do it?").
Unfortunately, many inspectors here in SoCA either have so little time to inspect, are lazy slackers, or just don't have enough Code knowledge to properly inspect the jobs and these practices continue.
(Although not quite as bad as some that you describe.)
so the vicious cycle goes on...and on...and on. [Linked Image] S
Posted By: electric-ed Re: Violation after Violation - 11/12/02 01:30 PM
This situation could not exist if it were not for another factor that I don't think has been mentioned yet - the blissful ignorance of many customers.

Ed

[This message has been edited by electric-ed (edited 11-12-2002).]
Posted By: Jim M Re: Violation after Violation - 11/13/02 03:48 AM
I can echo all of the feeling above.

A few weeks ago I was talking to someone who had done some work at a job prior to me. They had used white PVC adapters for part of a feeder to an outbuilding. I asked if this was inspected. He said the inspector had no problem with this. At the same job the neutrals and grounds are terminated in the same hole on the buss. This too has a sticker from the inspector that all is OK. I got the red sticker for work that I hadn't done, the ears were loose on an old work box. Go figure.

I have also heard that the inspectors will also approve NM-B outside in conduit. So much for quality control. What do you do when you need to teach the inspector their job?
Posted By: gramps Re: Violation after Violation - 11/13/02 10:37 AM
i suspect that, at least in some areas, there is some money changing hands, (under someone's table). how else could these jokers continue to get by with some of this stuff? and, its not just the "fly-by-nighters" either. some of these "contractors" have been in business for years, and have 50-200 employees.
[Linked Image]
Posted By: master66 Re: Violation after Violation - 11/13/02 11:23 PM
Well, the Inspector was there today to inspect the appartments where all of the MC is not even close to being properly secured.

He had no problem with any of the work that was done so far.

I just don't get it!

I guess thats one of the reasons that I couldn't make any money. Too particular I guess. You know... Doing work that meets Code requirements.
Posted By: Kobuchi Re: Violation after Violation - 11/14/02 01:47 AM
To an outsider, this thread is greatly reassuring. Though I've never found a licensed electrician actually violating the code, I've met a few who seemed to think the code (or inspector) should be their standard of quality. The code actually represents the absolute minimum standard. Nice to see some of you put the quality of your work above all else.
Posted By: andylea Re: Violation after Violation - 11/15/02 10:15 PM
the problem with shoddy workmanship carried out by fly by nighters is the blame of the inspectors and consequently on the people above them. depending on how vigorous an inspection is varies a lot from area to area. a point that has been proved many times by just going threw a few of these postings. unless something is done to regulate or actually carry out the inspections, the cowboys will continue to realise that they can get away with that sort of work. whats the point in having inspections if the inspector isnt inspected.
i guess everyone is different, in england we were held responsible for our work.but on a personal note, i wouldnt be able to sleep if i knew id done something that could potentially be dangerous.i guess some people just dont have a conscience.and im guessing those are the sort of guys whos office is the back of a truck and whose phone is on a street corner covered in graffitti !!!!!!
Posted By: sparky Re: Violation after Violation - 11/15/02 11:06 PM
Of course the errors described here pale by comparission to the time bombs we see out there, some of which have been ticking away for years....
{refer to violations forum}
Yet most were violations of one sort or another even back then, the 'existing' rationale being it simply had'nt been a problem
Workmanship exists as a secondary concern to safety {in terms of degrees} for those who think with their 'liability' lobe only... [Linked Image]
And safety seems balanced on the scales of commerce vs. litigation here

tick....tick..tick..tick.....
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Violation after Violation - 01/31/06 04:30 PM
I do like resurrecting threads:

Out at a service call yesterday where part of the work was to seperate existing living-room and dining-room receptacles into two respective circuits. This is a really old house, and the owner has been using my company for a while. This company recently did the service-upgrade; nothing dangerous there, but it darn sure wasn't work I would've been proud of.

Well, when I go to get a receptacle-count for each room, I notice that these are nice, new, grounded receptacles with unbreakable nylon wall plates. This ain't the original 1940's stuff, here, folks. There's only one problem: The wiring I'm seeing in the basement, which feeds the receptacles, is the original 1940's stuff: Cloth-sheathed NM with cambric-insulated conductors and no equipment-ground.

You guessed it: This company charged the homeowner god-knows how-much to go through the entire house and change out all his non-grounding receptacles with grounding-type, and these geniuses just ran a green pig-tail to the metal box and called it a day.

I don't know what's worse: That this outfit does work that rivals the quality of any jack-leg off the street-corner. Or that they bill the clients amounts that rival those of good electricians.

[Linked Image] [Linked Image]

-John

[This message has been edited by BigJohn (edited 01-31-2006).]
Posted By: Larry Fine Re: Violation after Violation - 01/31/06 04:47 PM
You mean that silvery cloth sheath isn't conductive???
Posted By: mamills Re: Violation after Violation - 01/31/06 08:11 PM
The "jack-leg" electrician actually wields a double edged sword. He not only provides the customer with a poor quality product, and in BigJohn's example, resorts to downright DECEPTION, but also grossly undercuts the quality job that a real electrician would provide. It's unfortunate that hiring an electrician is not usually done in the same manner as hiring a gardener or a painter, where customers consider references or examples of their work. I believe that, even a relatively uneducated customer would recognize poor quality work vs. high quality work. There are many varieties of quality of work being done (or being perpetrated on cusotmers) - that ranging from highest possible quality (which members of ECN stand for), to that of such dubious quality that it should never be put into service.

Regrettably, most of the time it factors down to one single thing, as do too many things today...money. Quality, and the time required to secure it, are too far down the list.

Mike (mamills)
Posted By: e57 Re: Violation after Violation - 02/01/06 01:21 AM
I am in kinda the same boat as the oringinal post... Been on my own, worked for other shops where I was Field Sup. and now work for a new shop where I often point out violations or just poor work quality. Then I get in return, "What do you mean, it's fine, we always do it like that..."

Sometimes it's hard to be a Premidaonna.... [Linked Image]
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Violation after Violation - 02/01/06 01:32 AM
Master66:

The 'inspector' you mentioned.....

Are you in PA?? If so, an area that has had permits/inspections for a while??? Or, is it a fairly "new" thing to get permits & inspections??

I 'got' a PA AHJ Lic (it just expired yesterday); thought I may 'use' it, but never did. A lot of guys here (NJ) thought about jumping the border for $$$ but I guess it didn't happen.

We have a few hacks here, some are Lic EC's themselves. Some make me ashamed to be a 'lectrician.....BUT, quality prevails.

John
Posted By: TNSunny Re: Violation after Violation - 02/01/06 05:30 PM
New electrical companies in my area get inspected pretty heavily. But once the company gets a reputation for doing solid work (typically by passing a handful of inspections), then the inspectors tend not to "waste the time" inspecting them so heavily. After all, they "know they do good work." SO, with the heat off, the electrical company starts cutting corners because they know the inspector isn't going to take the time to look at everything in detail. Add to that complaceny the fact that most homeowners have absolutely no clue about anything electrical, and the fact that the inspectors often let a lot of things slide, and you have the recipe for work that does not comply with the NEC. It really comes down to the contractor policing his own work.

Kevin
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Violation after Violation - 02/01/06 10:23 PM
Quote
It really comes down to the contractor policing his own work.
Which is a damn shame because I can't tell you how many times I've heard: "Don't waste time doing that. This isn't going to be inspected."

-John
Posted By: wa2ise Re: Violation after Violation - 02/01/06 10:30 PM
what an inspector pressed for time could do is do a suprise through inspection of a random but substantial portion of the work, or a randomly selected job. If everything looks good on what gets inspected closely, he could assume that what didn't get looked at likely is of the same quality of work, and if what did get looked at passes, he could just do a quick glance at the rest and pass it all.
Posted By: SvenNYC Re: Violation after Violation - 02/01/06 10:42 PM
It's these jack-legs that are in "the trade" that make me have a bit of distrust in New York City electricians. I really hate to say this.

I've seen some of the work that some of these people do....and it ranges from little details like not wrapping up a receptacle with tape, to not fastening a locknut all the way onto a box connector; to totally using the wrong connector for the type of cable that is being run (e.g. using a romex-only type clamp for fastening BX - and omitting the 'red devil' so the wires are rubbing up against the sharp edge of the armor).
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