I would like to hear any imput on a prceived problem in my company. My company uses a "Job Clock" sydtem for payroll, the problem is, this clock gives only a beep when logging in or out, no indication to the employee of what is being logged. Recenently there seems to be some problems with the locks logging wrong times or nothing. The maintains this is not possible and will not pay for any time not on the clock.
Does anyone know if this would stand up if contested, the employee has no way of knowing anthing is wrong until payday. I personally have nothing against a time clock but not one that I can't verify my time being recorded.


Thanks for any input.

I beleive they are simular problems with electronic voting machines....

Anyway, if they are not paying you for time worked - they have a serious problem - maybe they should also have a supervisor logging hours worked. And I would definately keep a record yourself for when it all comes down - as in some states they will have to pay you a penaltee for lated of missing pay.

They can take any position they want .... but it's not likely that the labor board will agree with them.

Early in the days of high tech replacements for the old-fashioned time card, I worked one place where we swiped a 'credit card' through the reader. Well, Murphy reported for work along with me, on my first day .....
I would come to work, and clock in. Another employee would come in .. and his card swipe would both clock him in, and me out. At day's end, his swipe would clock him out, and me in ... until I clocked out a few minutes later. So, payroll thought I worked 5 minutes in the morning, and 5 minutes in the afternoon.
Not possible? That's what all the experts said ... until they were able to do it themselves. Perhaps there was but a one in a gazillion chance of the cards being so coded ... but there was still that one chance!

I dislike the product you mention, simply because their advertising seems to presume that the employee is busy cheating the employer. As someone who likes to consider himself a professional, I have little patience for chair-borne commandos frittering away the money I earn for them, doubting my dedication.

If they're not willing to fix it, it's time to fire them. Find another contractor.

Time clocks of any type make me sick. If you can't trust the supervisor and the guys on the job, then you need new people. I have walked out on several interviews when a time clock was mentioned, or I saw one at the office.
However, they do have their place. To keep the employer honest.
I worked at one company, where if you were one minute late, you got what they called an "occurance" Six occurances in one month out you go, even if you worked overtime everyday, and came in on weekends to help out. 450 people on payroll.

Next employer 2000 employees. No time clock. Everyone kept their own time on a time sheet and turned it in twice a month. We even used the same coffee pot, break room and bathrooms as the plant manager. They knew how to make people feel equal.

One more, My wife drove to work one day in terrible winter weather. She was two minutes late. She got a warning. The people that did not show up at all were not penalized at all.

Thanks For Letting Me Vent......John

We write our own time invoices for company billing, and hand write our time cards.... And our PJM doesn't do fractions, wants things rounded up to the next whole hour I've never used a time clock for anything but lighting and sprinklers

What's wrong with a time clock ? JValdes, you say the only function of a time clock is to keep the employer honest ? That's a load of crap. So I guess you're the only employee out there who records a late start whenever you are a few minutes late.

The bigger the company, the more lost time each month. You can't tell me ALL of the employee's out there would be 100% honest with their time card if they hand wrote it. The employers know this and thus the time clock is necessary.

I personally like the time clock system that provides each employee with two key fobs, one red and one green. The time clock is mounted on the jobsite and the employee's swipe their key fob past in to clock in/out. Why should an employee be paid for time not worked ? If you came in at 7:05am and worked until 3:35pm no harm done. But how many guys start at 7:05am and leave at 3:30pm ? But hey, it's only five minutes. What's the big deal ? It's theft same as taking material home. Multiply five minutes of time for each employee that does it and now the dollars start adding up.

Even better yet, biometric time clocks. This prevents any time abuse.

Yes, I am the owner of an electrical contracting shop and yes I felt the same way when I was an employee.

We hand write our time cards and hand them in at the end of each day the only difference is we "punch in and out" for each job we are out doing.. I have no problem with this, BUT the " management" is wanting us to be at the shop at 7:30 BUT we don't get paid until 8 regardless of what we put as our "start" time. So yes while I am out doing a circle check of the truck or gathering materials I am not getting paid for " time worked"... And we MUST have a 1/2 hour lunch because even if we don't we get 1/2 hour taken off regardless.... Not a big deal because we all make sure we take 1/2 hour "morning coffee", and our regular lunch..

A.D

Sparky..... Starting time is 8:00 am. Then you clock in at 8:01 am and work until 10:00 pm. Where I used to work, that would have been a mark (occurance) against me.

The only good purpose of a time clock is that employees get paid for the actual time on the job. Like if you work a few hours overtime and you are hourly or salary non-exempt, you get paid for those few hours. If you are on straight salary, you do not get paid for overtime.
Both scenarios can be accomplished by the employee filling in his or her own time sheet.

Punch clocks and whistles are for apes. Could you imagine having to drop what you are doing, when some stupid whistle goes off. Not me.
Agree to disagree....John

Rewired, you state that management wants you to be at the job at 7:30am but your start time isn't until 8:00am ? Why would you get there at 7:30am then ? If you don't get paid until 8am, arrive at 8am. Management cannot tell you to work for free.

JValdes, if the start time is 8am then you should be at work at 8am. If you're late and the company policy is to record this as an 'occurence', you knew that when you were hired and given a company handbook.

Also, your last post states, "The only good purpose of a time clock is that EMPLOYEES get paid for the actual time on the job." Your previous post states, "However, they [time clocks] do have their place. To keep the EMPLOYER honest. Well, which is it ?

I'll just sit here on the proverbial fence and watch both sides duke it out and instigate a little. I am not a company man by any means but I see the value of a time clock on larger construction projects. If I was a company owner, you best believe I would be watching my bottom line. Time clocks serve many useful puposes.

A good time clock system is a tool that takes an employee just a few seconds to use. It actually is a benefit to the employee since it is now a record in case of miscalculation of their paycheck. If there is an error you got a record to fall back on and is legible. Many places the foreman or supervisor had the discression of "hand write" the times in for several reasons that can delay employees like adnormal traffic jams and even new cars can break down unexpectedly. Many employer understand this and have measures in place for situations like this. Some employers prefer you to be late if you are running late. It is better to have an employee be late and drive safe then driving recklessly to try to be on time, especially if they are driving a company rig. The employee and the employer will lose more then just a few minutes of work if the employee gets into an accident.

Data from the time clocks can reduce hours of paperwork in the office and chasing down employees trying to decipher the chicken scatch hand writing. Mine is terrible. It can save time in proccessing payroll and save time in project management. We all know time is money.

The use of time clocks and hand written time cards both have their pluses and minuses just like the tools in your pouch. You may not always agree with your employers choices, however they are one steering the company. Some employers uses the time clock to micro-manage. Some times it is needed. Too many people abuse the honor system for the honest folks. Then again if the one signing my check wants me to punch a clock so I can get a paycheck, I will. That is part of agreeing to work for someone. The more efficent a company is, the more competitive they can be. The more competitive they are, the more likelyhood you have a job next winter. There is no such thing as job security

If the employer is just dirty rotten scondral just to screw employess, go work for somebody else. The overall market is good for sparkies and getting better every year. I work for me, not the employer. I will give them an honest day work and respect for an honest day pay and the respect back. Good electricians are marketable.

Rewired, my employer tried pulling the come in at 7:30 but you don't go on the clock until 8. It only took one mention that "the state labor does not agree with that policy" at a technician meeting before it went away.

We have hand written, or typed, time sheets, which are turned in bi-weekly and they have to be matched up to your job tickets. We have to write a ticket for every day with time in and time out, the guys on service have to have the tickets signed.

It seems that most companies do not have a problem with you putting 8:00 on your time sheet when you really got there at 8:05 or 8:10, as long as you get the job done and don't cause problems for the company.

All the guys in the field also take the trucks home at night. If management wants to check up on your times, they can pull the ez-pass reports, and there have been times where somebody was called into the office because of a discrepancy. 'How were you on site at 8:00 when your ez-pass shows you going through the Lincoln tunnel at 9:00...'

We work 7:00am to 3:30pm as do all the other trades at this jobsite except for the....err...hispanic form crew. However company policy states that at the stroke of 7:00am you will be at your work location with your checked out tools, ladders, personal tools, and ready to work.

Every single one of the guys working on-site signed several different forms during thier employment screening, assignment to the job, and arrival at the job agreeing to this. Since I am lead for my floor they expect me to enforce this, in fact they are threatening to write me up for failure to produce write-ups against my crew.

Now how does this work in real life?....yes you have to be there by 6:30 and I have to be there even earlier. No I am not getting paid and neither are you, but you better by-god be up on a ladder and working at 7:00am. Is this unfair?...not really in this case since my company gives free basic medical/dental/eyecare to all employees. Along with paid vacation/PTO time and other unheard of benefits in floridas ridiculously competitive non-union "right-to-work" state atmosphere.

Your pay is also considerably higher than that offered by all of the residential and service companies, and noticeably better than any of the other local commercial companies. Why?...because we only do the "mega-project" jobs; we want professionals and expect you to act like one.

Is it a violation of the labor laws to actually expect the person to perform the 8 hours of work he is being paid for? Personally I don't think so...you should be ready to work when your shift starts not three floors below just signing in.

All that being said I am a proffessional and my current crew is all the same now that a few have been weeded out. I don't yell and scream; I remark, cajole, and banter. I don't ask anyone to "bust thier a**", all I want is consistant continueous progress. Morale is great and the floor is also going great.

But....I am not produceing the expected number of write-ups for policy violations especially compared to the floors immediately above and below me. I have tried the "I have a great crew" defense but it apparently isn't going to wash. What the heck do you do when your employer demands that you write up a great employee because he didn't actually show up at the job until his start time once or twice a week over a few months?....

I'm at a loss on this one.....

I'll bite and try my best. I have never worked in FLA so I am not familiar with any of the labor laws.

Folks working in a high rise have to be at their desk at what ever time their suppose to be, not in the lobby. This means that they likly traveled from outter parts of the city, try to find parking or taxi, cram in to 1 of more elevators to be at their desk actively working. I do not think they are compensated. I have had a union job and we did not get travel time. Two hours hours one way and had to be there by 7am. It was layed out during my interview. What they did not layout, I asked, I accepted I leave at 5 am to be at work by 7

Like it or not, you are a supervisor. I can not suggest how to superviser nor do I have a clue on your employer practices. As a supervisor, you are resonsible for everything that happens and don't happen in you area of responsibility. This includes the enforce of company policy. If you are new at supervising it is a hard thing especially if you came up through the ranks because your are now supervising former co-workers. You want to be their friend and they think they can kick back and get away with things since you are in charge. A true co-worker will support you and you are expected to deliver to you employer what you are expected of. It is not a easy transistion. It is harder then many people thinks.

Some employers give a bump in pay for the hourly foremans and supervisors. It is right to to have a person work for free? No. Supervising is not a 9 to 5 job. Sit you people down, call it a safety briefing and give them the 411. Tell them that both you and they got a job to do and in a certain manner. If soemone needs a little exrea talking to, take them aside and be professional about it.

With top pay and top benies, what is wrong acting professional. You are considered a professional and you are paid like one.

I agree

Sounds like teamwork

Does you company have a quota requirements of write ups or they are assuming you numbers do not reflect the other floors so you are slacking? Being a great employee is not an excuse to be late for work. Being late a couple time a week every week is unacceptable. Granted I would look at it case by case basis. Work with the person and apparently the front office is aware of the problem so you and him are putting your job on the line. A true great employee will not do that to the team. When a company has policies that are not followed and enforced, this can create problems for everyone else. It will be difficult to enforce the policies with other employees that is hurting for disiplinary action. It can hurt moral and can create job hazards. Your employer can and sounds like they are going to disipline someone for the person's tardiness. I do not know the persons story. Ask youself, you as his supervisor, if you can not address the tardiness, are you willing to recieve disiplinary action for the someone who can not get there on time while the rest of your crew can?

Dear Friends,
My personal opinions have changed back and forth over the 34 years in this trade. I have seen more than enough from both sides of the isle. I have been in a supervisory role for over 15 years. I am now disabled and cannot work. I have primarily worked in the industrial field since I moved from Florida to South Carolina. While in Fl. I also worked the mega union type jobs out of local 349 Miami.
The reason for the statements I made are from experience. Wether I am right or wrong, is up to you. Not me. I just write my opinion. If I contradict myself, I ask that you to bring it to my attention, which has been done.....Sincerely John Valdes

The "JOB CLOCK" gives no indication of what it is clocking, and can be and has been wrong, but the employee has no knowledge of this untill their pay is wrong. I have no problems with a time clock, but not one that gives no indication to the employee of what is being recorded. In this latest incident at my company, the foremans word that the clock was wrong was excepted, the foreman being me.