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Posted By: renosteinke The End of the Drill? - 12/14/07 01:27 AM
About two months ago, I started ajob in a building with lots of heavy timber - timber I had to run pipe through. Remembering a product demo I had seen at a suppliers' open house, I took a chance. I bought a new kind of tool, and a new kind of bit.

The tool was a cordless "impact driver." Not to be confused with a hammer drill, in this tool, all the 'impact' is in the direction the bit is spinning. The power in even a small tool is impressive; my 9.6 impact easily outperformed my 14.4 drill. More importantly, there is absolutely NO twisting felt in your wrist. The tool will not yank itself out of your hand.

Later, I used it for driving screws; again, with excellent results.

Then, today I tried my 'unibit' in it, for opening a hole in sheet metal. Again, the improvement over any drill was amazing.

My four drills get used less and less theses days. If you have not picked up an impact driver .... get one for Christmas.
Posted By: ausador Re: The End of the Drill? - 12/14/07 01:37 AM
I have to admit I see more trades useing these every day....but have yet to try one yet. The tin knockers and black iron guys seem to be useing them quite a lot on my current jobsite.

Maybe I should give one a try, I'm one of those guys who loves tools and gadgets too much and also spends too much on them. But...having the correct tool (like a control punch K.O. with keyway) can often save a lot of time. Plus makes the powers that be impressed with you occasionally. smile

Thanks for the first hand recommendation.

Posted By: sparks_n_shorts Re: The End of the Drill? - 12/14/07 01:40 AM
I have both a 14.4 volt impact, as well as an 18 volt...both with the quick disconnect chuck. I may have to see about one with a standard chuck, for uni bits and such. I absolutely LOVE my impacts
Posted By: wire_twister Re: The End of the Drill? - 12/14/07 02:17 AM
My wife is getting me an 18 volt Ridgid impact drill for Christmas. I have used the Makita to drive some 3 inch deck screws works great, wont be using a drill to drive screws any more.
Posted By: derailed Re: The End of the Drill? - 12/14/07 02:30 AM
I absolutely love mine. I only use my regular drill anymore for small jobs where its too hard to control the torque and shear off screw heads. For anything else the impact drill is the tool I use.

I drove a thousand deck screws this summer and even the cheap Ryobi branded one that I've got did fantastic. for drilling larger holes or with larger bits they are fantastic too, much less stress on your wrist and arm as they just hammer their way around.

They are fantastically loud though. I wouldn't do much of anything with one without some hearing protection.

Really, this is the first "new" tool that I've really embraced in a long time and I've never regretted buying it as opposed to a new regular drill. Mine just has the speed connection for attaching bits, and the best drill bits are still the traditional kind, but I've added an adaptor and that works great too.
Posted By: SP4RX Re: The End of the Drill? - 12/14/07 03:14 AM
I think this really could be the end of the drill as we know it. Impact drivers seem to be superior in every way. I have only owned a cheap 12v Black & Decker model (the battery charger died though) but even that was better than my 14.4 Bosch.

There are about 40 guys where I work and about half are using impact drivers...they've really caught on.

I know of a few guys who use an adapter that allows them to use sockets in their driver, and get this...they use a socket to drive the draw stud for their knock-out cutters. Apparently you can hold a 4 & 11/16 box in one hand and, using the impact driver, knock out a hole to 1" with the other hand.

I know what I'm buying for myself...once I recover from the Great Christmas Financial Meltdown.


Shawn.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: The End of the Drill? - 12/14/07 07:16 AM
The screen guys were using one of those 14.4v Ryobis here and I played with it. Quite a gadget. It shot 3/8" tapcons into concrete like drilling into wood. It is as small as my 9v Makita. The guy said he has taken off lugnuts with it
Posted By: JValdes Re: The End of the Drill? - 12/14/07 05:13 PM
Can someone explain this to me. Is this an air tool? I am not familiar with it.....Thanks John
Posted By: Theelectrikid Re: The End of the Drill? - 12/14/07 08:41 PM
I believe everyone's talking about the battery powered impact drivers.

I know what I'm buying once I recover from my "traffic light spending spree."

Ian A.
Posted By: renosteinke Re: The End of the Drill? - 12/14/07 08:57 PM
The impact drivers I am speaking of are battery powered, and resemble cordless drills in appearance. The most obvious difference is that the 'chuck' is usually a small collar, that will only accept a 1/4" hex shank.

In operation, they act like a drill ... spinning the bit quickly ... until resistance is encountered. Then, an internal mechanism takes over. A rapid series of little 'hammer blows' are applied to the rotation of the bit, allowing the bit to rotate a little with each blow. In use, these impacts sound more like a ratchet than anything else.
Little or no torque is felt in the handle.

Virtually every maker of cordless tools has a model. Milwaukee even has a 'super size' model, intended for use with their 'selfeed' large diameter forstener bits. Some even have a handy LED light in the nose.
Posted By: noderaser Re: The End of the Drill? - 12/15/07 02:35 AM
Originally Posted by renosteinke
Some even have a handy LED light in the nose.


By the time the LED comes on, the screw is already on the floor. But, maybe it's just because I'm slow and find that they run way too fast for driving screws. Last time I used mine to drive screws (of course, without the magnetic bit), it jumped the screwhead and hammered a nice little hole UNDER my thumbnail. Ouch.
Posted By: leland Re: The End of the Drill? - 12/15/07 04:19 AM
Please, give usa link.
Posted By: renosteinke Re: The End of the Drill? - 12/15/07 04:27 AM
http://www.cpomakita.com/drivers_and_fasteners/impact_drivers/btd130fw.html
Posted By: Check Pilot Re: The End of the Drill? - 12/15/07 06:53 AM
We have been using these little suckers for about a year and a half now and I kinda thought that by now everyone might have had some exposure to their use. I first tried one out that one of the turd herders had when he was putting in some metal vents on a contract site we were on and I've been hooked on them ever since, so I went and got 3 of them for us to try out.

It took our guys about a day before the complaining stopped about having to use a "new" tool and once they got used to them they just loved them. Now all I hear about is the adapters that get lost sometimes. Magnets only have so much power and sometimes even the best of us get in a bit too much of a hurry.

I don't know how much money we've saved in 12/14.4/18/36 volt batteries for the drills we had before but it must be in the multiple hundreds of dollars since I hardly see any of the guys or myself for that matter, pick up a regular cordless drill much any more. (I do admit to being a bit of a dinosaur though, because my faithful old Dewalt still swings from my belt however).

We have tried a Makita, 2 Dewalts and a little B&D unit that looked kind of crappy and cheap but it has not quit even after being dropped a few times and they all seem to work and last very well. I have only had to replace one Makita battery pack so far and that was only because a bit of metal somehow got into the Makita drill/battery connection and shorted out the contacts with the resultant and not to be unexpected high heat coming from the battery pack. About the only thing they have trouble drilling through is an inch of oak or maple when we have to drag out the Milwaukee Hole Hog.

I think the only time we go back to a regular drill anymore is for rough-ins in good old spruce studs when the Milwaukee has to drill 150 3/4" holes for the NM in the studs. There is no battery powered drill that can do that anyway so it's a moot point.

The big problem now is the whining I hear when someone has to actually drag out a cord for the good old Milwaukee and actually have to start the generator too. My gosh times are tough these days.

If the guys that make these things now go to a small keyless chuck instead of the 1/4" drive, they'll make a pile of money on new sales.

Anyone else here had any experience with other brands?
Posted By: renosteinke Re: The End of the Drill? - 12/15/07 04:05 PM
CP, there is an after-market little chuck sold, that has an attached hex shank. I have not tried it, but it looks like in might ... repeat, might ... be useful.

I have a uni-bit that was manufactured with a 1/4" hex shank, and I've seen 'ordinary' drill bis with the shanks, too.

Milwaukee makes an impact driver with a 7/16" hex collet ... which will accept the 'selfeed' bits, as well as many hole saw arbors and extensions.

The first one I used was the Panasonic model. I bought a 9.6 DeWalt, so that I could use my existing chargers. The 9.6 impact easily outperforms my 14.4 drill. Since then, I have handled the Makita, and find it superior to the DeWalt in every way.

I see that both Bosch and Milwaukee are marketing tiny impact drivers - about the size of a hot-melt glue gun - that use the lithium ion batteries. They claim that these tools are serious tools for real work. I admit it would be nice to climb a ladder with the tool in my pocket, rather than in my hand.

Finally - and I cannot stress this enough - a bigger battery on the tool does NOT mean it has more power. The impact mechanism usually delivers the same size 'blows' as the smaller models. The bigger battery just runs longer. Time to leave the 'Tim Taylor" mindset at home.
Posted By: sparkyinak Re: The End of the Drill? - 12/15/07 07:06 PM
Has anyone used auger or spade bits in these impact drills? is so how did they fare with nails and knots? I can see the nail cutters on them being FUBAR'ed
Posted By: sparkyinak Re: The End of the Drill? - 12/15/07 07:13 PM
After riding the drill all day, how do you feel? Vibrations all day on the wrists is not neccesary a good thing. For example, folks who run orbital sanders rather fequently can easily develope carpo-tunnel(spelling?)
Posted By: renosteinke Re: The End of the Drill? - 12/15/07 09:34 PM
Unlike an orbital sander, I did not perceive any vibrations in the handle while using the tool. You really do have to use one to appreciate just how different it is.

I bought mine for a job that involved running pipe through 4" LVL's, some spaced less than 14" apart (A note of caution here: there are VERY specific rules for drilling LVL's!) Thee were also I-joists present.

I also, at that time, bought a set of Irwin "Speedbor MAX" bits. I bought these, simply because that is what was used when I saw the tool demonstrated. These bits are a cross between spade, auger, and self-feeding designs, and have the 1/4" hex shank. Once you got the screw tip started, all you needed to do was keep the trigger presses - the bit did the rest .... until 'punch through,' where some pushing was needed (of course).

These bits are NOT designed to cut nails; a similar bit is advertised by Lenox that does make such a claim. In my experience, you very quickly became aware when the bit struck a nail - it stopped progressing, and the sound was different. Upon examination, the damage seemed concentrated on the scoring point at the outer edge of one of the flutes. This point is quite important at 'punch through,' so damage there means more pressure is needed, and the exit is not as neat.

Overall life of the bits was somewhat more than that of a spade bit. There were absolutely no problems with the shanks being bent - even with the largest (1 1/4") bit. That's a big hole for a little shank! Holes bored were extremely clean. As for knots ... as long as the pilot screw can grab, the drill powered through without problem.

This, of course, brings up another issue: bits. As nice as either the bit or the tool was, they are an awesome combination.

When used driving screws, there was a real improvement; the bit did not seem to spin out of the screw nearly as readily. You were much more able to control just how deep you sank the screw. Still ... if you have the choice, you might consider Robertson, rather then Phillips!
Posted By: Rewired Re: The End of the Drill? - 12/15/07 11:22 PM
I have the Ryobi 18V impact driver and I love it! It will even drive lag bolts into wood poles without any problem... Tapcon screws? Blows them into the wall just as easy! Being without an impact to me would be like being without a set of 'Kleins!

A.D
Posted By: Check Pilot Re: The End of the Drill? - 12/16/07 05:30 AM
How about the weight of the Ryobi? Carry it up a ladder by hand or just stick it in the ol' tool belt? I went on their web site but it seemed a bit vague about the weight.
Posted By: bb Re: The End of the Drill? - 12/16/07 12:48 PM
I've got a 24v Ridgid impact driver, and I love the thing. So far the only problem I've had is that I've accidentaly sheared the heads off of several tapcons. It's a little heavy, though. I've stopped even carrying my regular drill with me!
Posted By: leland Re: The End of the Drill? - 12/16/07 02:27 PM
Wow, Pretty positive feed back!
I guess I'll try one.
I would never give it a thought, well maybe for changeing tires and water pumps...

But the more i read here and think about it, it makes sense.

Posted By: SteveFehr Re: The End of the Drill? - 12/17/07 12:42 PM
I picked up a corded hitachi impact drill (marketed as a "hammer drill" for whatever reason, but is actually an impact drill) and can confirm that the impact action cuts significantly faster than the drill action alone. It also destroys bits in a hurry and instantly strips screws, too.

I normally use it on plane ole' drill mode so as to not overheat/overstress bits. (Ths instructions say specifically to NOT use impact action when drilling.) Though the temptation to spin a big dull hole saw at high RPM in impact mode is high...

In my drill, even in impact mode, it will drill normally until you bear down hard enough for the impact mechanism to start slipping. THEN you get the impact action. It has a standard chuck, too. This is a corded high-power, high-torque model, and the torque can be enough to really tear your arm up if the second handle isn't attached. So, my experience using a high-powered impact drill may be different than someone using a lower-powered cordless impact drill.
Posted By: renosteinke Re: The End of the Drill? - 12/17/07 03:20 PM
Steve, I am not aware of ant 'combo' drill / impact drivers being sold. I think you have a hammer drill. Let me explain the difference:

A hammer drill is used for drilling in masonry. Almost everyone sells combo drill/ hammer drill models. In a hammer drill, the impacts are directed forward, into the work.

An impact driver may sound sort of similar, but the impacts are directed in the direction of the rotation. You can even get the impacts when backing out of the work. You absolutely will never feel the tool want to 'tear your arm off.'

In appearance, one of the main ways to tell them apart is that an impact driver almost never has a standard chuck; it has a little collar that you lift, to insert a bit with a 1/4" hex shank. It will not accept anything else.
I have not destroyed any bits, and twisting screw heads off has not been a problem at all.

I think you have a different tool.
Posted By: SteveFehr Re: The End of the Drill? - 12/17/07 05:42 PM
According to the manufacturer, it's an impact drill:

http://www.hitachi-koki.com/powertools/products/drill/fdv16vb2/fdv16vb2.html

There's a button near the chuck to engage/disengage the impact mechanism. Lowes markets this as a hammer drill. There is no forward hammer motion, it's all rotary action. It is an impact *drill*, not an impact *driver*. I don't think it would do a very good job removing torqued-down lug-nuts, for instance, it just doesn't have the torque.
Posted By: renosteinke Re: The End of the Drill? - 12/18/07 02:49 AM
Going to have to chide the Japanese for blowing it on translating terms.

The pictured Hitachi is, without a doubt, a hammer-drill. And, yes, there is a forward hammering motion when set in the 'hammer' mode. That motion might not be visible; it's created by a simple mechanism that can best be described as two poker chips riding atop each other. That's the noise you hear.

"Fine Homebuilding" currently has a 'special issue' out devoted to tools. They have within all manner of explanation and pretty artwork describing the impact driver.
Posted By: Sandro Re: The End of the Drill? - 12/18/07 03:15 AM
The best drill I've ever owned.

http://www2.panasonic.com/consumer-...del.EY7201GQKW_11002_7000000000000005702

Once you own one, you will wonder how you ever lived with out it.

Posted By: leland Re: The End of the Drill? - 12/18/07 03:29 AM
I still have and use a very trustworthy friend.. An Impact driver. It accepts a 1/2" drive socket and you wack it with a hammer.
Would'nt want to wire a house with it... But very effective on a clutch hub.
Posted By: frenchelectrican Re: The End of the Drill? - 12/18/07 03:45 AM
here is the youtube demo about the cordless impact driver

this will explain the simple operation i know there is few other brandname will show up as well.

Merci, Marc
Posted By: e57 Re: The End of the Drill? - 12/18/07 09:09 AM
Reno I've been using impact drivers for years - had I known you were still in the dark ages I would have let you in on this secret sooner.... eek

Now you wanna have some fun - chuck your unibit in the trash. Cut a 1/4" hole for the arbor then the hole size you want - much faster that a unibit!
[Linked Image from toolbarn.com]

Also Panasonic does make an impact and drill combo - the chuck comes off to expose the impact driver. Years ago it was THE BEST thing on the market - but had little distribution, and darned pricey... IMO it has been surpassed in price and quality by some of the Makita combo's.
[Linked Image from makita.com]
Posted By: Check Pilot Re: The End of the Drill? - 12/18/07 11:22 PM
As far as adapters go, has anyone tried this one?

http://www.jacobschuck.com/images/products/JC-025%20Hex%20Bit%20Adapter%20Sales%20Sheet1.pdf
Posted By: Check Pilot Re: The End of the Drill? - 12/23/07 02:19 AM
Bump.
Anyone?
Posted By: sparks_n_shorts Re: The End of the Drill? - 12/23/07 03:41 AM
I use my Makita for just about everything. As mentioned above I use a socket adapter and drive 3 inch lag screws to hang plasma TV mounts, I have used it to drive screws for mounting fan braces, tap cons, etc. I love the dang thing
Posted By: Theelectrikid Re: The End of the Drill? - 02/03/08 04:24 AM
My Sawzall® is no longer my favorite electric/cordless tool...

Sears had a set of their Craftsman (Ryobi) 19.2volt tools on sale for $189, 1/2" drill, reciprocating saw (my dad wanted this, even though we have the 11amp Sawzall®), fluorescent light, trim saw, and the ever popular impact driver.

Got it home, charged up a battery, and let me say this, I will NEVER use a drill or hammer drill to drive screws again (except drywall screws, see below.) A little noisy yes, but it drives 3" lags into this old redwood framing without any complaints. Its first task was to mount a pot-rack for my mother with the 3" lag screws.

Only thing it won't do is drive drywall screws, snaps the heads off. Oh well, the regular drill will still do that.

I'm sold.

Ian A.
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