Hello all.

I just discovered this forum tonight and spent the last half hour reading a few topics. I'm in need of some advice from anyone who cares to give it.

I'm a college grad (Electronic Media) and have spent the past 5 yrs of my life working in the media field as a videographer/editor.

In so many words I'm burnt out on the ratings motivated media. I used to be able to look past it, but can no longer stomach it. I know EVERY business has something undesirable, but I've seen some rather ugly things in ALL aspects of my job. I keep telling myself to get out of the business and start a new career, but it's difficult when you've put so much time into something.

I've been talking with friends, relatives, etc who are in the electrical field and they have nothing but GREAT things to say about it.

The city in which I live has a GREAT appren/training program (IBEW) and I applied a few months ago, took the math and comprehension test, passed and now have a interview scheduled. If all goes well I'll start the training in Feb.

I'm not afraid to work hard, physically and mentally. I enjoy it. I like working outside, constructing something from beginning to end and feeling some sort of accomplishment when a job is done right. I plan to take my training and expanding on it by getting a Electrical Engineering degree some time in the future if this all pans out.

Now that I just laid all that background on you, what advice can you give me as to what to expect if accepted. What's it like starting off? Going through the training? Hours? Days? Nights? Go periods of not working? How it affects your marriage?

I know this is VERY vague, but any advice or insight would really help me out.

Thanks.

Burr, Welcome to our world. I’ve prepared for you a TOP TEN LIST OF RULES FOR APPRENTICES TO LIVE BY. You don't mention what part of the country your living/working in, so your results may vary. If your apprenticing in a big city, things will be more cut throat than in rural areas.

#10. Yes you do want to join the check pool. The $5 that you loose will buy you plenty of good will.

#9. When it’s your turn to bring the donuts. Don’t be cheap and buy the discount brand. Show your journeyman that you have a little class and you’ll spend less time cleaning out the truck.

#8. Buy yourself a good set of tools. If it looks like you bought your tools off the rack in the checkout line of the grocery store, you will be sent home.

#7. Bring your tools with you every day. I don’t care that you were out drinking all night and you left them in your buddy’s car! If you don’t have your tools, your no good to me, and you will be sent home.

#6. Don’t get an attitude when you show up for your first day of work with your shiny new tools and your journeyman tells you to put them away because your not yet ready to work with the tools. However, you better have them with you everyday, just in case.

#5. A broom will be the first tool that you will be required to master.

#4. I don’t care how deep in debt you are after you bought your tools. They are a requirement for your job. And I don’t owe you any overtime to help pay for them. By the way, I’ve lost or had stolen more tools than you’ve ever seen. So don’t waste two hours of my time looking for the screwdriver you misplaced. Use your spare screwdriver, which you better have with you. And buy yourself a replacement after work.

#3. Memorize how your journeyman likes his coffee. You will be sent for it often. That is part of your job, don’t ever screw it up!

#2. Your journeyman is always right.

And the number one rule for all new apprentices:

Don’t call your Journeyman an A**hole when he is within earshot!

(Cue Paul Schaefer and the band, and go to comercial......Now)

Anyone else have some words of wisdom for this young man?



[This message has been edited by Pearlfish (edited 11-07-2002).]

Pearlfish thanks for reminding me why being an apprentice SUCKS. Quite frankly it is people with your attitude that drive people away from the trades. Just becuse someone is a helper does not make them any less of a person than you. Lighten up a little.

I agree. The days of bullying the apprentices are gone. If you were smart you would be teaching that apprentice as much as possible so he can make your life easier. Unless you are afraid for your job? Time is money these days.

Show up for work everyday unless you are really sick or have made previous arrangements. Keep in mind that you will be booted out of the program for absenteeism.

Be on time.

Your two most important tools are a pencil & your intelligence. Don't leave either one at home when you go to work.

Do not fall asleep at the safety meetings. This nap is for journeymen only. You do not know what the dangers are in this trade or on the jobsite, so when someone is trying to explain how to keep yourself safe, pay attention.

Get used to safety glasses and hard hats, their use is mandatory on most jobsites.

Buy a really good, comfortable pair of boots (steel toes), You are going to be on your feet a lot, treat them good.

Get a pair of pigskin gloves (calfskin is too stiff). These will protect your hands when pulling wire (you'll do a lot of this) and they are flexible enough to pick up small screws & parts.

Anytime you go out on a big job, expect to do a drug test on the first morning, so drink plenty of coffee with breakfast.

Make sure you get your share of scrap copper on the big jobs, this is how most apprentices around here make their car payment.

Welcome to the trade & good luck.

Tom

Wow... I just bought $60 worth of hand tools as a "good luck" present for my new helper. He goes for his test on Tuesday. Man, I hope he passes...

I've offered him $8.00 per hour to start, with a raise to $10.00 as soon as he's convinced me that he's earned it. I let him work one day to get a taste of it and see if he wants to really do it. It was an ugly job, too, but he hung in there. His biggest complaint was that he didn't get to do enough, but I told him, as soon as he passes his test, and all in good time.

With a national shortage of 80,000 electricians, I feel lucky to get him.

Pearlfish, however, the humor of your post is noted and enjoyed! (Boy, I can relate!)

Virgil,
Is $10 p/h the going rate for:
Helper?
Journeyman?
Resi?
Comm.?
Just curious. thanks.

That's what I'm offering for an apprentice, mostly residential, some "light" commercial work (nothing more than 240V, and 320A, some 120/208 Wye)...

$10 per hour was the most I was ever paid as a journeyman here, and $12.50 as a master, and that was commercial and industrial work... not counting subbing for other contractors as an EC...

Believe it or not, it's an attractive wage for this area, especially entry level.

For once, you guys envy me!

Wish I had had good advice like this, before I started my time.
Man,it's so hard to please some people.

Burr,
I can't say enough good things about the IBEW apprenticeship. The information is there for you to soak up so take advantage.

I also thought, and still do, about getting an engineering degree. I have decided not to waste my time. As an IBEW JW you will make more than all but the most senior engineers. Here they start apprentices at about $12.50 per hr and JW scale varies from $27- $32 per hr plus all the benefits. With all the OT I generally get I haven't made less than $75K since I broke out. I don't believe engineers generally make that. Hopefully you are in a part of the country with a good work backlog. It is slow in a lot of places right now.

If you want to learn about the traditional union ways spend a little time here. Keep in mind a lot of the posters on this site are pretty hard core. But it is what you will deal with on any of the "big" jobs. Small jobs are less structured but should still follow the agreement.

Hours can range from a regular 40hr week to 7-12's. Day, swing or graveyard shifts. It took my wife some getting used to when I got on big OT jobs. You are gone all the time. Unless you take an over time call, all OT is voluntary. I always take all I can get my hands on. This is known as being an "overtime whore." You never know when the construction market is going to dry up, and it will from time to time, so I take it while I can get it. As an apprentice, if you are any good, you will hardly ever, if ever, be out of work during your apprenticeship. You are cheaper than JW's and will stay around longer as the jobs wind down. Apprentice books are usually clear when work is remotely good. Even if you do get layed off you go right out to someone else the next day. However, If work is slow in the area you should be prepared to be out of work for a couple of weeks or more. It's the nature of the business.
Good luck to you.

Virgil,
Thanks for recognizing that I was making a poor attempt at humor by stealing the Top Ten format from David Letterman.

However Burr, I was only speaking from experience. Back in the early 80’s when I did my apprenticeship, Working in the trades here in Chicago was very cutthroat. If you couldn’t prove your worth, there were plenty of guys waiting to take your place. On top of that, the Journeymen took the concept of Rank and File to mean that you got to teach your apprentice in the same manner that you were taught. Burr, these guys are right, it sucked! But it taught me how to stick with something till the end. I’ll bet that all the members of this forum who have ever been in the services thought that their basic training sucked too. It’s supposed to be that way. They’re teaching you a mentality about getting a job done, not just the skills about how to do it.

Whenever I hear about some contractor, who started a job, tore apart someone’s home, took his or her partial payment and never returned. I’d like to think that person never served a true apprenticeship. To this day I curse the guy I apprenticed under and the ground he walks on. But every day I show up for work, ready to do the best job I can.

Good Luck Burr,
Steve

Pearlfish after your revision I now see the humor. I do stand by what I said for you guys that do have this kind of attitude. I see no reason to make life miserable for someone simply because you feel it will make them a better worker some day. 66, Ten bucks an hour. YIKES "Envy" is not the word that came to mind.

Virgil,
I have to agree with Electricmanscott on this one. I hope my boss doesn't see this thread he'll be expecting a whole lot more from me!

Go-go, I wasn't completely agreeing, however, it was very reminiscent of my own
apprenticeship. Jobs were scarce here in the mid 80s, and like Pearlfish said, you did everything you could do to stand out from the rest.

Anybody old enough to remember their first couple of years being
nothing but building and tearing down scaffolding? That's the way it was for some J-men I've worked under...

I've vowed to treat my apprentice like I wished I'd been treated, however. But he
will be driving ground rods and crawling in the mud and attics more often than me.

Electricmanscott, Believe me, $10 per hour is good for this area for entry level. More
like excellent. I started at $4.00 back in '84 and was making $4.00 in Richmond, VA
summer of '86.

By envy, I meant I bet you guys wish you could pay your guys so little and get away with it! Or do you think it's too much? I got an offer for a Masters position that paid only $10 per hour about a year ago. I hastily turned it down.

Back when I was making $10 as a journeyman and $12.50 as a Master, I was using my own power tools and using my personal van as a work truck!

Ain't no way I'd expect that from my employees.

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 11-07-2002).]

I know it's all relative but those wages are depressing.

Yes they are E-Scott, it is a reflection of the lack of bueracracy, allbeit the double edged sword it is.....

As to those who seek the holy wirestripper;

One piece of advise i was given was from an old Bruce Lee interview where he was asked what style he was.
His reply was 'all styles, and no style', as he chose to emulate the collective of his experiences.

As to deciding to ride the brama bull and move on to contracting, well....lets' put it this way......

The Toe you step on today may well be connected to the A** you gotta kiss tommorrow...( my co. motto......)

Steve (stylin')Sparky.....

~PS, Pearlfish....
I thought i was 'coffee boy' for quite a while....



[This message has been edited by sparky (edited 11-08-2002).]

Pearlfish
It sounds like your first reply hit a little too close to home for some people. I am not an electrician, so I did not go through an apprenticeship program. I could appreciate the humor in your response, but I also saw what you were saying in the background.

Sparky66
$10???? We have grunts on the floor making more than that. But then again I am here in sunny(not today) Southern California

Some perspective on the wage issue:

I just drove up the Delmarva peninsula today and saw a bulletin board: "Join our team at at Big Chicken Company processing plant, start at $8.00/hr"


What's the point of mentioning this? Apprentices are getting paid the same as meat packers!! What kind of image of the trade is this sending?

Granted, working at a meat packing plant is a horrible job, but hopefully you get my point. Low pay is one of the reasons I left the trade.

Well, I mentioned it to illustrate that I intend to treat my new apprentice well.

Seriously, guys. $12.50 for a J-man (non-union, resi) is top pay around here.

$10 for entry level is unheard of.

Didn't mean to sound like I'm ripping people off!

What is entry level pay for your area?



Meat packers here make minimum wage. It would be less, but the feds won't let 'em.

Entry level for most jobs around here is minumum wage, and usually no more that $6.00 p/h maximum. No benefits, ever.

Heck, OT is usually "saved for a rainy day" and paid at regular time on short weeks. Not that I'd do that, of course.

My gross business so far this year is about $26,000. How much of that should I give to a helper? All of it?

</rant>



If you think I'm bad off, my step Dad makes $200 a week working 7 14s at his Dairy Farm.

No exaggeration.

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 11-08-2002).]

Virgil,
what say we pack up and cruise to S.Cal ?, maybe Scotts'l set us up ?

Nah... I could never pass the tests... And if I did they'd soon discover that I don't know what I'm doing!

Besides, I figure if I've got enough money to move away, then I've got enough money to stay! And here, I'm becoming a big fish in a small pond.



[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 11-08-2002).]

Pretty much have the same feelings others here do.

Had to deal with the attitudes which Pearlfish described - and this was the early 1980's! Arrogance at it's best!
Due to this, I'll be damned if anyone coming near me will be dealt an attitude when trying to learn!
[many threads I have written about this, not news to the "Elders" in the forum].

Good luck to you in your Career change / upgrade.
Luckilly you are coming into the trade at a time when Technology has advanced to the point where single minded Jokers are cast out and their Dic*etry will not be tolerated.

<flames spewing from my ears from old memories>

Scott S.E.T.

Allow me to add that said helper currently works for a lawn care service running a weed-whacker 8 hours a day for $7.00 per hour and it's his third season working for the guy. He's considered the best worker there.

He considers coming to work for me the opportunity of a lifetime.

Just giving a little perspective.

Ok 66 now I envy you. 26K a year makes for very litle in taxable income. Through three quarters I have paid more than 1/2 that in taxes to Uncle Sam and The peoples republic of Massachusetts. This is for myself only with no empleyees. At least the feds use the money for good at times. Such as the for the CIA with unmanned drones blowing up our enemies over in those third world waste lands. Gives me a warm fuzzy feeling!

Virgil,
I'm convinced that you're paying a good wage and it sounds like you're the man to work for there. Good luck w/ your new helper good help is hard to find!

Hey 66, Sorry, I didn't mean to sound like you were ripping people off. I'm sure what you pay reflects the cost of living, market conditions in your area, etc. I started out at $8 and hour too, and that was only 5 years ago.

Burr-
A few things about the IBEW program.
It's a good program from what I have heard. I applied and was accepted to it myself. However, the work situation in my area is dismal with 200+ JWs on the books and numerous apprentices laid off as well, so I walked away from it. I couldn't deal with the constant hire-and-fire cycle.

Be prepared to make a 10 year committment to the union. You do this by signing a legal document stating your apprenticeship training is considered a loan, and that you pay back your loan by working it off. (5 year apprenticeship, 5 year payback). If you decide to quit at anytime in that period, you have to pay them for your training, pro-rated. In the local here, it's $12,500 for 5 years of training.

You also sign a "non-competition" agreement, stating that if you quit the union at any time, you must not be employed by a non-union contractor for a full year after you quit.

School is 2 nights a week, 3 hours per class, and attendence is mandatory. Missing class and low grades (less than a 70 average) will get you kicked out right away.

When you show up for your interview, make sure you have a passport photo in addition to your drivers license! This is very important.

As everyone else has said, show up on time, work hard, and you'll do OK! Study hard, learn as much as you can, and stay at the top of your class.

I wish you the best of luck!


Just for reference, pay in this area is:

Union: 1st year apprentice: $11.66/hr. Raise every year incrementally 40, 50, 60, 70, 80% of JW rate. JW rate:$29.50/hr. Plus benefits.

Non-union: Apprentice: $8-15/hr. JW: $20-25/hr. (approximately) Plus benefits.



[This message has been edited by CTwireman (edited 11-09-2002).]

I am in my 2nd year as an apprentice and I make $16 an hour and have never had less than 40 hours, usually 50 and always time an half for every hour over 40.
Started off at $14 an hour and got two $1 raises so far.

I pay $6 a week and my employer kicks in the rest for full insurance coverage, I get 7 paid days off (includes sick and vaca.) My company provides us with cordless and power tools (hilti hammer drills, cordless drills and sawzalls) which we take home and keep unless we leave the company.

My company is in Mass. and is nonunion.

I knew they treated us good but did not know how good until reading some of the posts on here. I never realized in some parts of the country the electrical field is not as respected as it is in New England.

We're still respected...

City and County Cops here make $6 to $8 per hour.

Fireman work for free.

Doctors are leaving in droves because malpractice insurance is out of this world here...

Lower middle class are considered rich snobs.

No one complains of losing their 401Ks to the internet stock crash, because nobody had anything invested!

Wisconsin was so weird for me... They were trying to sell me the job by making offers like profit sharing and 401Ks and health insurance rather than me trying to sell my ability to work!

It's all a matter of perspective...

I have no rent or mortgage. No truck payment (yet), all my tools are paid for, I can survive on less than $1000 per month, although it's no fun.

Very little crime, laid back area, beautiful scenery, and it's home to me.

CTwireman, no need to apologize, actually, I'm a little jealous!

new york city here.......the wages are a bit better........but.........i pay a thousand bucks to rent a 3 bedroom appt for a month(plus gas and electric) and my ciggies are 7.50 a pack......but thats what you get with a billionaire for a mayor who says everyone should tighten their belts.....i guess i wouldent mind too much with a few billion in the bank........but then........i wouldent be working either, thats for sure......

....better to eat beans & be laid back IMHO


(U can always supplement with livestock...)

[This message has been edited by sparky (edited 11-17-2002).]

Update:

My former helper, Jimmy, is now working as an electrician for $7.00 per hour for another (larger) outfit here.

All I did was shoot myself in the foot by paying him so much.

Anyway....

Hey Virgil,
It's good to see that you still remember the website address. Where ya been? we miss your thought provoking input here!!

Donnie

I can understand being tired of a given profession and looking toward electrical.

When I wanted to become an electrician, I memorized a couple of books and then went job hunting. Got the first job I applied for.

If you buy plenty of tools before you start, buy and learn how to use a meter, the people you work for might let you use them sometimes.

Many times, I had plenty of tools on me and I was sent to do more "fun" work that was intellectually stimulating, where I got to use those tools, while guys with more experience and less tools had to do the crappy work. I saw the boss look at my tools and assign me to something that suited my tools. I probably carry more tools than anybody in my company (a sure sign that I don't know what I'm doing - har har).

One time I worked with another apprentice who was starting out, we had to bring a bunch of pipe into the building. As we were doing that, we talked. He had been a painter. I asked him if he had any electrical tools. No. I asked if he knew anything about electrical, like how to wire a receptacle. No. I worked hard alongside him and he was slow-walking and lazy as can be. They moved me to other work after a couple of hours, running conduit. He kept doing menial chores. He was back painting the next time I saw him.

Get some knowledge before you go to work and you might be able to do some "intelligent" work instead of just carrying pipe for the first year like a totally ignorant laborer.

The work can be dirty. Working with MC, which is covered with aluminum, gets your hands black. Working overhead gets tiring. Working on your knees on a concrete floor is hard on the back. Pulling wire through pipe at the limit of your strength leaves you with a sore back. Crawling around in attics gets hot. Digging trenches for underground makes you feel like you're getting too old for this.

It's construction and it's physically demanding sometimes.

Still, it beats carpentry, painting, concrete, sheetrock hanging and finishing and the rest of the trades, most of which I've done except for plumbing.

Just going to work willing to work hard makes a difference. Lots of guys go to work like they're serving some sentence. There are thieves, murderers, con men and other low-lifes in the construction industry, avoid them.

I've worked nights for 4 months straight. Kept me out of the heat. Now it's not hot any more, looks like I'll be back on days. Got used to nights after a few days. Going back and forth from nights to days is a pain.

The construction industry is volatile. You'll be working your butt off for 3 months, then the work dries up unexpectedly for 3 weeks. Expect to have little security. I'm working in the #1 job market in the country too, so not even this place is safe. Just remember that construction is not steady work unless you know somebody in high places who keeps you working.

My company had 100 employees, and the work slowed down until we only had about 10, but I was still there. Must have done something right!

I just like knowing how to do electrical work, it was such a mystery to me before. I love knowing how to bend conduit to fit perfectly, so you can't even get a feeler gauge behind it. Yes, I love electrical. Probably won't love it forever, it seems like a lot of guys get burned out on it after a while. For now I'm happy enough to stick with it for a while. No career can make me happy for 20 years, sometimes I need something new, even if it's a step down.

I was about to go try to join the union, but after reading some of these posts, maybe I'll just stick with non-union. I'm too old to invest that much time and obligation and be bent over the barrel, expected to pay back twelve grand to pay for being an apprentice. Maybe if I was 25 years old it would make more sense.

Good luck!

And one more thing - marriage. She won't like the fact that the job is not continuous work all year long. Every time you're not working she'll be on your case.

Of course I wouldn't know. I don't do wives. Trying to quit. I've been without them for 7 years or so. Besides, they're hell on the discretionary income.

Virgil;

You're back!!!

Thought you may have been captured by



Scott35

You might want to consider buying a Code Handbook. It has all the code in it plus commentary that goes along with it that makes it easier to understand. I know one of the hardest things for me to understand when I went through apprenticeship was the code and I know it would have made it easier for me.
I have never heard about signing a 10 year agreement and having to pay money if you don't complete. Maybe that is only in certain locals but if its in mine or the one I apprenticed in I would be very surprised. I would definitely check that out if it was me.

Whoopee! Virgil's back!
Good to hear from you again, and hope all's going well.
Hope you can stay on this time.
We've all missed you...S

Hey, if only we had a cone of silence and a shoe phone we could get the real scoop on Virgil's recent whereabouts! Sounds like you've been busy enough to keep you off the streets but perhaps allowing enough time to play a few gigs here and there.
/threadjack

Making a shift in careers at almost-40 has turned out to be pretty exciting and lucrative for me so I encourage it in general. Looking ahead to both the interesting and mundane things makes good sense. Looking ahead to safety issues, including wear and tear on your knees or keeping your faculties intact (like wearing safety glasses), will serve you quite well, too. I was a tech dispatcher quite a while back and still remember when I nearly lost my lunch the day one of my techs pierced his eye while pulling wire without glasses on.

Invest in a good pair of kneepads...

(NO, you sickos..not for THAT reason!)

Get the "hard cap" kind with decent padding. Don't be cheap.

After kneeling on rafters and unswept concrete all day, you'll be glad you didn;t get the $5.99 ones.

Don't be cheap - you only get one set of knees from the factory.

Other ideas... Get a handful of those foam earplugs with the cord, and make sure you keep a set with you (in your tool bag, pouch, bucket, box, whatever). Running a hammer drill in a small panel room can leave you deef after a while - or if you're using Ramsets (the powder-actuated nail guns) inside.

Stick with brand name tools (Klein, Ideal, Greenlee, Craftsman (don't laugh)) - most have a decent warranty, and, more importantly, they're not going to break when you're in the middle of using them as designed, leaving you to invent new cusswords.

Once you buy those fancy tools? Engrave your name (or initials, or "special mark") on every one, or on every component those tools break down into. It keeps them from "walking away", makes 'em easy to spot if they get borrowed, and keeps you from hockin' 'em on a whim.

Welcome to da' job!

Doug

(BYW, I like my coffee extra cream, extra sugar, and my favorite donut is choclate glazed!) [ ]