Hey everyone;

I've been a long time lurker and haven't posted much, but I have a question to ask.

A friend of mine who owns and lives in a very large residence is conducting a room by room restoration project and is soon to focus on one of the dining areas which also doubles as a second ballroom. The room is lit nine crystal chandeliers (4 medium, 4 large and one enormous, which was the only one hanging in the picture) and four huge banquet lamps. The wiring is to be updated, I imagine, as each of these lamps has something like fifteen bulbs, the large chandeliers have eighteen or so each and the medium sized ones have at least eight outer bulbs (and maybe have some inside).

The chandelier in question, however, has at least 105 lights. It weighs about 2,000 lbs (hangs from four bolts in a steel I-beam), is eight feet in diameter and about ten feet long. It was, I believe, originally piped for gas jets and used to have candle supports on each of the external arms and around the rim.

The chandelier was electrified in the 1920s and replaced four older light fixtures in the 1960s. It is due to be rewired as many of the sockets have failed and the lighting is uneven. When it was first installed, the chandelier was on EIGHT different switches but this was later reduced to three.

There are eight exterior arms which each bear a hanging ring of crystals surrounding a bulb. The lowest point of the chandelier has a crystal beaded globe containing a bulb. The rest of the chandelier's ninety-six lights are on the interior.

The owner is thinking that fewer lights of higher wattage, with a lower net wattage that now, would be sufficient in lighting this piece and allowing it to be placed on, I imagine, two or three dimmer switches. I suggested, but now am not thinking it is such a great idea, that a number of spotlights be installed within the chandelier to produce the light needed with as low wattage as possible but I now feel this would produce glare and bright spots and not the glow that is desired.

The chandelier needs to operated as general lighting for certain functions and be able to be dimmed when a function requires it.

Is there truth to the use of few bulbs of a higher wattage producing more light and how would one necessarily distribute the circuits, allowing for the possibility of reducing the number of sockets. I had forgotten to ask what kind of service the residence receives so I don't know if there would be any advantage that might arise out of having three legs of a three-phase circuit or if one must use the single phase service if that is all there is.

Here is the picture, with another picture of the residence for those who are curious:

Residence

Many thanks!

This is the type of work, that would be best placed in the hands of an experienced Architects Firm, that specializes in restoration work, they will usually consult with an engineering firm, and together plan the project.

The fixtures can be sent to a lamp restoraton company, where they are reworked and the new lamp designs incorporated, after that, the building wiring can be planned.

The ceiling wiring, chandelier dismantling, etc itself isn't an issue. Indeed, the owner has consulted with engineers and architects on all such aspects of the restoration of this estate, including the hanging of this chandelier. The circuits to the chandelier were installed by an electrician. The wiring is accessible, the support for the chandelier is substantial and more than handles the weight.

The only issue at this point is what to do about the number of bulbs and if higher wattage/fewer bulbs is better than 105 lights at a lower wattage and if this can be effectively handled on dimmers.

The architecture of the room itself will not change and this is the only piece the needs attention. The remaining chandeliers and lamps do not share any circuits with this fixture.

Charles:
Good day, and may I say thank you for the pics. The residence is inpressive, as is the chandelier.

From previous experience, the lighting effects that the owner wants is the first requirement. Dining usually is low and in the ballroom mode bright and subdued.

A few were set up...
Outer ring & center single lamp with 40 watt bulbs, one switch leg & dimmer.
Lower set of interior bulbs 25 to 40 watt, 1 switch leg & dimmer.
Upper set of interior bulbs 25 to 40 watt, 1 switch leg & dimmer.
9 x 40 watt = 360 watt (Ring)
9 x 60 watt = 540 watt (Ring Alternate)
48 x 25 watt = 1200 watt (Lower)
48 x 40 watt = 1920 watt (Lower Alternate)
dittos (Upper)

Utilizing 60 watt in ring, and 25 watts in the rest, you have a load of 2940 watts, three switch legs to create a choice of mood levels.

Add 1 x 1000 watt, and 2 x 2000 watt Lutron dimmers, and you have anything he wants within reason. I suggest these dimmers, Or a Canadian Equal) as they have been trouble free installs, and can be ganged neatly.

I rebuilt four for the main ballroom area of a country club
with circuitry as above and everyone was happy. (60 lamp total, down, center & up nickle & brass arms, cut crystals; 850lbs) The rewire was OK, once the right parts were located.

Are you doing the rewire? If so, are you doing it 'in place', or taking that baby down?

Hi John;

The lighting effects are rather important, yes. Much of it can already be accomplished, with the four large lamps and eight chandeliers all on dimmers, but this central chandelier is definitely the focal point of the room.

That set up sounds fairly good if the number of sockets is to be maintained. I was also possibly thinking 64 and 32 for the interior, with 64 @ 25 watts each amounting to just over 13 amps at 1600 watts and 32 @ 25 watts plus 9 @ 25 to 60 watts falling under 9 or just over 11 amps. That could be handled with two 20 amp circuits, multiwire (keeping them tied together), with one going directly to a dimmer and then the chandelier and the other going to two dimmers and then the chandelier.

I'm certain though that the owner is adamant on using lower numbers of higher wattage bulbs. For the sake of simplicity, 105 lights @ 25 watts each is 2625 watts (~22 amps). That's the juice of about 66 forty watt bulbs or 44 sixty watt bulbs. Generally speaking, would those numbers of bulbs produce more light than the 105 bulbs? It so, those number could also be reduced, bringing the chandelier down maybe to 2000 watts (or even lower?). She has been thinking about this for quite a while as the need has become more and more important with rising energy costs, etc.

I'm out of state from this project but will be over for a visit around September most likely. I don't know how soon it is going to happen as it was brought up toward the end of a phone call. I was told that it was going to be a dismantle job and I said I'd like to observe or take part in it if possible. When the fixture was installed in the 1960s, preparation work was done in the workshops which are in the former stable wing. I imagine it will be done there, as the last time I heard, several conservation teams who specialize in a number of fields are in and out of this place and do work there on the structure and artifacts within.

It really is an amazing piece and is much more impressive in person. It was crafted for a Russian palace and must have come over after the revolution in 1917. The crystals are genuine rock crystal (not the polished glass stuff) and number around 12000-13000, all hand-cut. I think you can make out the crown at the top and the Russian-style motif of the largest ring.

Many thanks so far, guys.

I was on the phone last night with another friend well-connected to this place and he said that the wiring *to* the chandeliers is in excellent condition. There is a grouping of six switches in a back area: one dimmer for the four corner chandeliers, two dimmers for each of two larger chandeliers (four total) and then three SPST for the central chandelier, reduced from eight (which I am still having trouble grasping). All of this is in conduit, I believe.

I don't know where the dimmers for the large banquet lamps are, but there must be a series of dimmer controlled receptacles for the room.

Wow that place sure has some History.
http://www.belcourtcastle.org/architecture/banquet_hall.html

Hi Doug;

That would be it!

Whoa!,
I'd instantly turn a job like that down personally.
My record of working with expensive light fittings is not that flash, if you get my drift.

Why not look into using the new LED lamps. This would solve alot of issues? Just a suggestion?

Ob

Hi Ob;

Sounds like a good idea, but I don't think LEDs are "there" yet in terms of cost or of the quality of light desired. Incandescent lamps give a soft glow, especially when dimmed, and my experience with LEDS is that they are much too bright and glaring.

Charles:
Nice link! As to your questions, ponder this. 2700 watts, regardless of the number of lamps is 2700 watts. 2.7 KW, and if on for 6 hours, at .20 KWHr equates to $ 3.24

Utilizing multi controls (switches or dimmers) will lower the wattage consumption and costs. Dimmers, IMHO also tend to increase lamp life.

There are numerous other lighting scenes that could be implemented to hilite this outstanding crystal piece. Several VNSP MR type lamps to refract off the crystals for one; IF locations could be wired.

Frankly, and please do not take this the wrong way, I have a tough time accepting 'energy costs' as a concern, at a place like this.

Mike: (Trumpy)

I was going to call you to see if you would jump the pond and work on this job with ME. NO, just kidding my friend.

OB:
LED technology is not ready for this. And, seems like $$$$ is an issue?

Hi HotLine1;

I do realize that 2.7 KW will always be 2.7 KW. I was just wondering if the light of 2.7 KW of 25 watt bulbs could be produced with fewer watts worth of higher wattage bulbs. My memory is failing me at this moment, but aren't higher wattage bulbs more efficient in general in terms of lumens per watt?

Every penny must be accounted for at this residence for the purposes of maximizing funds for the various restoration projects. Roofing (slate, and *lots of it) needs to be assessed and replaced, painting costs hundreds of thousands of dollars, heating, antique conservation, acquisitions for the collects and of course, there is always the tax man. There is also the upcoming restoration of a room panelled with panelling from a French palace, which is due to be costly and detailed, and of the central courtyard, which is constructed entirely of brick, half-timers and stucco.

Halogen is what I had initially suggested but I now think it would cause bright spots. The refraction from this piece is already astounding --- the light of the other fixtures really play off of it as you walk around the room. There is also sunlight which comes in from the south-facing solarium which opens onto the courtyard and runs alongside the room (the wall you see in the picture is the north wall, so think the facing wall).

I don't take it the wrong way at all, I am just sure that anyone would want to save on their utility bills ;-). Also, I believe this portion of the house is actually leased to the foundation which conducts tours, etc, which was founded by the owners.

I can't tell if the desire to reduce the number of dimmers to reduce the overall wattage for cost and conservation reasons, or to eliminate the complexity of having multiple controls to operate the chandelier.

If the latter, you might want to look into theatrical lighting controls, which can easily handle the wattage you need. ETC (ETC hamepage) has "architectural" control stations and dimmer modules that go as high as 100 amps per channel, or you can run multiple 20 amp dimmer modules from a single control if you need to stay within 20 amp (or even 15 amp) circuits.

There are a number of companies that can provide controls that would work in your sitution; I mention ETC only because I'm familiar with some of their stuff.

Hi SP;

I tried to view that page but was unable to as only a line of error text showed up.

I think the desire to reduce the number of bulbs comes from a number of things: less sockets could mean less potential problems, easier to troubleshoot if there is a problem, and reduced (even slightly) energy costs if higher wattage bulbs yield more lumens per watt than their lower-wattage counterparts.

I don't think it's necessary to have one dimmer for the entire chandelier. As it is right now, the outer lights have purposefully been put on their own switch for when the room is otherwise fairly dark during late night events, stage set-ups, etc. The flexibility of two to three dimmers will probably be most desirable. I have sent off an email *so far* suggesting Lutron, but the owner is always frightfully busy so I understand that replies can take quite a while.

Yes lighting controls comes to mind.

Also a Lutron HP or simmular dimmer controller.

The HP-6 does 6KW.

Someone could really overload that thing with 105 of the wrong wattage bulbs.

If it had 105 bulbs myself I would keep it the same. Not that the lighting is needed, but more to keep it the orignal larger than needed style.

Hi A1;

Can a residential (this estate is classified as a residence although it contains, er, is, a museum of antiques and art) lighting circuit exceed 20 amps? That would really be the only application where a dimmer above 2 KW would be needed. I don't see that happening though as any given circuit to the chandelier is limited by the gauge if the conductors actually contained within the chandelier. It may be more practical to have multiple circuits rather than a single, larger one.

I certainly like the idea of 105 lights, but I think it factors in to fixture maintenance and other aforementioned things. The chandelier's large scale definitely suits the room and gives it a majestic feeling. It certainly must have once been in the palace theatre or in a very large ballroom.

Charles, I wonder why the link doesn't work for you; I just checked it, and I can access it from here. Perhaps it is a Firefox/IE difference.

In any case, here is the address, which you can type into your browser: www.etcconnect.com

The company is Electronic Theatre Controls.

Although, it sounds like you have some other viable approaches.

SP;

I was able to access the website with that link that you provided. I an an ardent Firefox user ;-)

The systems which I quickly browsed through seem to be rather substantial and surely would be suited for this fantastic room, with it's ten chandeliers (I forgot to mention one hanging above what used to be a throne dais!) and four large electric crystal candelabra, but the owner expressed her desire to only restore this one chandelier (all the others aren't as old and in very good condition). There aren't any problems or changes needed with the switching or dimming of the other nine chandeliers and four lamps.

Leviton produces a series of dimmers called "Van Gogh" with screwless plates, a heatsinks with wide and narrow faces supporting loads of up to 800, 1000, 1500 and 2000 watts. Are these good dimmers? Does Lutron produce anything similar with a simple face? These dimmers will have to be operated by any number of staff numbers, including wait staff brought in for special events. The less complex the better, probably.

Hey Charles,

The Lutron 6kw dimmers use 3 seperate circuits at 2kw each.
They have 3 models the HP-2, HP-4, and HP-6 rated at 2kw, 4kw, and 6kw. Inside they have a dimming board made for 2kw. The HP-2 has 1 dimming board, HP-4 has 2, and HP has 3 of those boards.

The dimming boards line and loads are all seperate from each other. Also the control board can use a seperate switch leg and nut. if desired. The control board also has a limited energy control (maybe 12v) for other uses such at all on full on. This can be tied to items like a security system, push buttons, or other controls.

So to use a HP-6 on single phase you would need 3 switch legs and 2 nutrals off the chandelier going to the HP-6.
From the panel you need 3 circuits to the HP-6. They might as well be 20 amp. From the dimmer switch you need the switch leg and the same hot and nutral used with the dimmer.
If you can spare a few watts the dimmer switch can use one of the 3 hot circuits. The dimmer load is very small, I forgot what but am guessing about 50 watts. Any incondescent dimmer should work but I like the Maestro (MA-600) for this.

Another feature is if you wanted other lighting such as the other chandeliers controlled the same as the big chandelier with the same dimmer switch just add more HP dimmers. They have a output that will control more HP modules. Of coarse you would need more circuits from the panel and more switch legs to do this.

When your done it's easy to have 12 or so conductors run to the HP-6. Also there is fine tune adjustments to make each circuit the same brightness.

This set-up would cost more than a few 2kw wall dimmers and takes more time to install.

The advantage is using only 1 standard wall dimmer, the wall dimmer does not heat up, the part that has the mechanical wear (wall dimmer) is a low cost part.

Here is more information:
https://www.lutron.com/grafikeye/specs/hp246.pdf

The only data I can give you now is based on a GE 'A' lamp, clear, 120 volt rated, 120 volt operational.....
A25 output is 215 lumens, or 8.6 lumens per watt (rated)
A60 output is 870 lumens, or 14.5 lumens per watt (rated)

Based on the above data, I will say 'yes' you get more lumens per watt from a larger bulb.

Shadowing, dark spots, uneven preceived light levels, and a possible plethora of other undesireable conditions could happen by a redesign of the socket locations and lamp size.

As to the Leviton/Lutron/ etc debate....personal choices based on experience will generate many opinions of which is "best". As I mentioned above, a 'spec' grade dimmer of suitable wattage will work. Trim out appearance is again a personal opinion....simplicity of operation by turning a few knobs, sliding a few slide type controls.....maybe even 'marking' various set points, or details of 'on/off' with the desired effect. Simple, relatively cheap (compared to pro type control systems; what mor could be requested???

Hi Guys,
I just figured that since the progress rep showed me some nice new trims that fit in there P-87 can that have LED at a reasonable cost. So I figure this project would warrant a look.

Ob

Having done a few large fixture jobs - I too will suggest some remote located Lutron HP panels and Graffik Eye controls if not just this fixture, but scenes in this and in various adjacent rooms.

Now fogive me as I apply my lisp, and draw out my inner lighting designer... 'Your little project needs to be in the hands of a competant professional...' (Both hands waving...)

The fixture itself I would leave "as is" in terms of switching and lamping. Much of the re-work that may or not be necessary should be done by a proffessional firm that specializes in 'period works'. As would any removal or re-hanging of, or shipping/handling of the fixture. IMO - the goals your customer/friend is looking to accomplish can be handled without messing with this fixture at all - unless it is in real need of repair. i.e. insulation or fitting damage.

My suggestions would be;

• Back lighting the stained glass from outside.
• Hiding deeply recessed lighting behind the cielings wood work to wash/general fill on the walls.
• Deeply recessed spot lighting - deep enough and with a small apature to make them as invisable as possible in the field of the cieling lighting above the head ends of the tables. And of course a faux finish on the trim to really hide it.
• Add either period or custom built wall sconces or torchiers to the walls for general and astetic lighting, and to remove the burden of the chandellier for general lighting.

Although this is a period room - much can be done with more modern lighting approches to improve function without ruining the astetics IMO. And the coffered cieling gives much to hide it all from view.

Hi e57;

I think the other rooms will probably have switches, etc, upgraded in the future, but the adjacent rooms all have one/two chandeliers and picture lights, basically, so I don't think they would benefit from a more complex control system. When events are held in this room, they are general contained within it, unless it's just something like a reception or gallery event, where I think it's mostly lights on.

The structure of the chandelier itself is in very fine condition. It's just the sockets, etc. They date to the 1920s and some have failed.

I have thought about back lighting the stained glass as well. Fortunately, the balcony for the upstairs ballroom runs along that wall as the windows for this room are lined up exactly with the balcony doors above. That also lends to the possibility of lighting the stained glass upstairs as well, as the the ballroom has gothic stained glass windows that open to reveal the balcony doors. The balcony is iron, about 70' long and has decking.

As for recessed lighting, that too sounds like a good idea, although I'm not sure how that would be accomplished easily at this time. I'm sure it was a hassle to route the singular feet to that one central chandelier and I don't think that Mrs T is quite ready to be putting holes in her ceiling right now.

The room is actually quite dazzling when the other chandeliers are fully lit, or even dimmed down a little, and part of the atmosphere of this residence is not to have it completely bright. It is comfortably bright now, it is just a matter of fixing the wiring in this chandelier. "Authentically", this room would have been rather dark with its north facing windows and now-gone four singular lanterns.

I have thought about suggesting moving the banquet lamps away from the end walls and having them against the pilasters of the two longer walls, two on each side of the room. It might, however, crowd the collection of rather handsome Gothic and Renaissance sideboards and chests along the north wall (there is one under each of the six double windows).

Sconces, I don't think, would suit this room. The banquet lamps on high pedestals would certainly have the effect that torchières would provide.

The recessed lighting though is tempting to push for, even though this isn't my house. It may come at a later point. Part of the saving grace of this house is that not too much has been done to physically disrupt the interiors. Many other local mansions were gutted, torn down, etc.

The owner and her family restored antiques and designed, built and restored stained glass windows. Indeed, the house was purchased to house their immense collection of antiques which started with "only" 17 transport van loads several decades ago.

They even designed, constructed and decorated a room in the house which used to be an open loggia on the second floor.

I'm sure that the owner is certainly qualified to have the restoration done by one of her teams. The electrical of the chandelier and switching will, at the least, be done by a qualified electrician. I think I would lean for the three switched legs to the chandelier, if I were the one making the decision, although a more cohesive system would at least be desired or thought of even if not implemented at this time.

HotLine;

That is the information I was looking for. Thank you! Although I do agree, it will probably lead to dark spots to reduce the number of lamps.

Regarding the dimmers, I do agree that notes and what not could be left at the controls, which would surely have a trim adjustment. Do any of the Lutron or Leviton models have a hi-end trim setting?

Active1;

That system looks well-suited to this application and I will certainly make note of it to the owner. I do not know if any budgeting for such a system will come out of funds for the Foundation or the owner's personal funds, and as such I feel it is not my business to ask.

For terms of functionality though, I think the bank of dimmer switches will work, although I would probably hope that a means of a whole chandelier shut down could be achieved, probably with a double pole switch ahead of the dimmers.

Charles:
All (that I have seen & used) have trim settings.
The 'scene' systems are semi idiot resistant also.

HL;

That's good to know... This chandelier completely lit would be overwhelming with the amount of light concentrated in one fixture.

Regarding my lengthy post about lighting the stained glass from the exterior, etc, what sort of fixtures would best be used to accomplish this?

Also, the front of the residence would benefit from illumination at night. The front, the narrowest side of the house, is about 150 feet long and is, I would say, about 140 feet from the driveway, which is T-shaped with the end splitting either way perpendicularly to the main-axis of the driveway, which is slightly off axis with the castle. Facing this side, half of the house is two stories, about 40' tall and the second half is three stories, about 60' tall.

It is best illustrated here: Aerial view

I ask this because I think it would be best to also illuminate the roof, which is a steep, slate mansard roof, rather than just the facade, which is what seems to be done with the current lighting (a single fixture set out daily which is plugged in, it only illuminates the three story section which connects to the two story wing).

I was at the castle about two weeks ago and spent the better of a long evening and most of the following morning and afternoon exploring (a feat given it's 50,000 square feet in size). Also to note is lighting designed by Thomas Edison in one of the rooms.

I didn't concentrate too much on the chandelier as there was lots more to talk about but was able to confirm the switching: three single pole switches for the chandelier, among others for other chandeliers and banquet lamps (although it didn't seem to be enough). Given I was everywhere from the top of the roof to navigating through the tunnels, I saw too much of everything to really hone in on one item. The chandelier is pending restoration though with about half of the sockets without power.

The hall it is in has its own subpanel, cleverly set behind a half-column which was cut to swing open like a door.

Also, I was able to note fluorescent floods along the ballroom balcony to illuminate the stained glass. The outside of the castle was dark and would benefit from lighting. Lots to be done there though with some very exciting projects possible.