(Anyone that's been in the chatroom the past few nights knows what I'm about to say...)

Reno (John) has a pic to attach pretty soon, of the plans I drew up to rewire my family's garage, plus a new window A/C and three ceiling fans.

Well, the hard copy of the plans is now shredded, and the scanned computer copy (except John's) is erased.

Why?

Permits.

Both of my parents are refusing to get a permit, saying "Nobody else does," and "Why should I support Falls Township?"

I told my mother a story a member here told me, about a family losing their insurance policy after a fire due to unpermitted work. What did she say? "Look on the positive side that nothing like that will happen." Yeah. Sure, okay. Just hope you never dial 9-1-1 for a fire after doing that work. Which in these Levitt-built boxes, seems to happen very easily.

I explained to my father that the township never makes money off of permits/ inspections, and I think Falls might actually lose it. Nope. No permit.

They got a permit for the shed, and am getting one for a fence. Why not some new wiring? Why not for that porch you want to build? (Another story altogether.)

I was going to do the work for them, seeing their refusal to call an electrician. Not anymore. I don't care how much they yell, kick, scream or pound my locked door. No permit, no work. Go ahead, let my dad (Comcast guy who knows enough to be dangerous) do it. Then you WILL be calling 9-1-1 when the garage catches fire. Bye-bye homeowners' insurance. Good luck selling this place in 10 years. Good luck rebuilding the house with no insurance money after it burns to the slab.

There's 250feet of 12/2NM down in the garage. I'm not touching it. Unless there's a yellow Falls Township Permit Card in the front window. Even then I won't, since I know my father won't get an inspection.

Sorry for the rant,
Ian A.

That's OK, I will rant right back at you.

Are you under 18?

Do your parents provide your food, housing and clothing?

If it's a yes to the above in my world you do what your told to or you can go support yourself.

Sorry....life is not fair, best get used to it now.

All I'm trying to say is I don't want to do it, unless someone's there to make sure it's OK. I don't see what's wrong with calling for an inspection on your 14 year old kid's work.

I'm sorry for ranting, just needed to vent after hearing my folks yell and scream that I wanted a permit.



I know that, I guess half the time I don't realize it.

Ian A.

Permit is the smart thing to do. An Inspection is the proper thing also but don't think for one minute that something can't happen with or without an inspection

I applaud you for your insistence on having the work permitted and inspected.

That being said, there is no issue with respect to insurance coverage, permitted and inspected or not. If your house (heaven forbid) burns down as a result of un-permitted or un-inspected work, the insurance carrier still has to write the check. As long as the fire wasn't arson, fire is covered loss, and the insurance carrier is on the hook in accordance with the legally binding insurance contract.

I have yet to see a homeowners or (building owners) policy have an exclusion for un-permitted or un-inspected work.

Remember, just because work is permitted and inspected does not guarantee the house won't burn down either. As a practical matter, particularly if a home or building has changed ownership a number of times, who is to say what work was original, what work was done, permitted, and inspected as part of renovations in say 1965, then in 1980, and again in 1995? Who knows what was done over the years.

What if un-permitted work was done prior to your parents taking ownership of the home? Does your insurance company rip out the walls and inspect the wiring as a condition of coverage prior to binding? Of course not. If previous owner(s) had un-permitted or un-inspected work done that resulted in a fire, do you think the insurance carrier would have any legal recourse against the prior owner(s)? Again, of course not, the previous owners aren't even a party to the insurance contract!

Remember, just because some bureaucrat signs off on a job doesn't necessarily mean it's safe - or even code compliant for that matter. You've read enough about inspectors here. Heck, here in NYC if a job is red-tagged, all you have to do is fill out a "self-certification" form and mail it in... no questions asked, no further inspection ever follows. There have been a lot of abuses of this process by unscrupulous contractors, but the practice continues.

Joe

That I know. I just want reassurance that the work checks out OK, as I am not an electrician. I trust myself and my work, I just want it inspected/permitted/approved.

(And yes, I alway have ECN open on my computer. Easy on-the-fly access whenever I pass by my desk.)

Dang Ian, if you really are only 14 hats off to you. You know more than just about any 14 year old that I have ever met. I am glad that you want to do this right the first time. I rewired my house a year ago this May, and my insurance company said the same thing that you ran across. after fighting with many people, and finally getting the appropriate permits, I actually did get to re-wire my house. I know that you probably don't want to hear this, but, be patient and try to see your parents point of view. There must be some reason why they don't want you to get the permit, and, I bet that if you figure it out and talk it over with them they might be cool with the idea. Stick with it and keep a cool head and you will most likely get accomplished what you want.

Ian,
Exactly how much electrical work have you done in the past?
I find it hard to believe (and no disrespect to you) that a guy of your youth could be responsible for a job like this, permit or no permit.
Have you served your time as an Electrician?, considering that this is all fixed wiring.
I mean are you connecting to existing circuits or are you adding new circuits to a panel?
Has there been any allowance made in the Mains for the new expansion?

In the same vein as Trumpy... I could've done a job like that at 14... barely, but my dad's an EC, I was carrying tools for him from age ten, just where did you learn how to do the work? relative, friend of the family? just curious, also, if you're inexperienced with house wiring, you're not using the inspector as a safety net, are you?

oh, Bob, you can't force a minor to do anything illegal that being said, most EC's around here wouldn't even bother to pull a permit for a job that small, and if I'm not mistaken our city has an ordinance saying something to the effect of "home improvments valued at <$XXX.XX ($500 I think?) need not be permited" so it might be perfectly legal for Ian to do this job sans permit

-Will

I wired most of our second story addition when I was about 13, with some help from my dad.

3 bedrooms, bath, darkroom, 4 circuit subpanel (3 used, but I had the foresight to stub the 4th circuit up into a 4x4 in the attic.)

My bedroom had 3-ways for the ceiling light, and switched outlets for the bedside lamp, and the stereo (across the room, with pilot light).

We had to extend the service mast, so my dad and the next door neighbor moved the service drop (the neighbor was a supervisor for the city electric utility..)

Who said it's 'illegal'?

We don't know what the law is where Ian is.

I live in a state with licensing and permits and this job would require both if an EC was to do it.

However here homeowners are not required to pull permits and in fact some cities and towns will refuse to inspect homeowner work.

Actually, to Will and Mike, cut Ian a break. I can honestly say that I was as capable and doing the same thing at 14. I have no EC's in my family either. The closest thing I have is an uncle who is an EE but, his skills are RF and digital, not mains wiring. I wanted to learn, so I had to read books and teach myself. It is not that difficult to do that, and become pretty knowledgeable, if you like to read and try.
Ian I have faith in you. I also applaude you for wanting to do it the right way. Yet, as some of the other guys have said, the permit may not even be reqiured in your area, check with your local building dept.

I would be afraid to do a project like that without a permit as well. Forget about the insurance part of it. At least having it inspected makes for a better chance that any errors or deficiencies will be corrected. By telling the inspector "hey, I'm just a kid", maybe there's a chance that the inspector will be patient and understanding.

My career story in this industry started out pretty much the same way as both Ians. My dad didn't know which end of a screwdriver to hold. Our family's real estate company had a regular EC they used and I got to know him pretty well at the age of 13. By 14, I was wiring my first total gut-job residential remodel and of course, I got busted. Our friend came over and smoothed-over the inspector. He did the new service and OK'd all of my work under his own permit.

When that job was done, he hired me at the tender age of 14 to work after school. By the age of 17 when I graduated from high school, he had me supervising two other men that were three times my age. We sure wired a lot of new houses because we got along well.

As with Ian and Ian, it's not just what's in your head, but what's in your heart. If you really want it, you have to go get it.

I personally think Ian could do the job, no problem, and probably do it very well... something we'd all likely praise if pics were posted.

I have no doubt your work would meet and exceed NEC code requirements, and be very neat and workmanlike. But you should research local codes as well. For example, here in NYC local code requires #12 on 15A circuits.

Iwire makes a good point though that some municipalities won't even inspect [and approve] howeowner work. In order to get that permit, it might have to be applied for by a licensed EC and work done by a licensed EC. Here in NYC, short of replacing a light bulb, a homeowner can't do ANY electrical work... or plumbing work for that matter.

Ian, it appears your parents want you to do the wiring. Obviously, they have great confidence in your abilities. That home is the biggest investment your parents will ever make, so you should consider it a sincere compliment that they would entrust you to do this kind of work on it.

If your parents absolutely refuse to pull a permit, and you'd feel better if someone physically looked at your work, if you're friendly with a local electrician in your area, perhaps you can have him (or her) "inspect" your work... just don't expect them to give you anything in writing. Also don't be shocked if they find your work perfect... I wouldn't.

Joe

"That being said, there is no issue with respect to insurance coverage"

Depending on the state he is in, and the insurer he has, the exclusions will differ, there is a big issue with insurance companies and cities that require permits, and inspections, In the last 5 years there have been plenty of insurance, and required permit related problems in my area.

"As a practical matter, particularly if a home or building has changed ownership a number of times, who is to say what work was original, what work was done, permitted, and inspected as part of renovations in say 1965"

When the home was purchased from the previous owner, the current owner usually obtains Title insurance which would cover the past defects. Once the new owner takes title, they are responsible with obtaining permits for any new work, when and where required.

The permit and inspection process is not to enrich the city, most states have laws that do not allow inspection agencies, to profit from inspection services, the permit and inspections are to insure safety, and reduce risk from construction deficits.

"Remember, just because some bureaucrat signs off on a job doesn't necessarily mean it's safe - or even code compliant for that matter. You've read enough about inspectors here. Heck, here in NYC if a job is red-tagged, all you have to do is fill out a "self-certification" form and mail it in... no questions asked, no further inspection ever follows."

How the inspection was preformed is not the owners concern, filing a permit where, and when required is.

I got a lot of replies to make...



Mike, no I haven't served anytime as an electrician. Any previous work? Do traffic lights count? That's not exactly 'fixed' though, as although they're tied together, the controller is plugged in. Also, switches, recepts, and fishing TV cables. (I know, not electrical, but still a skill.) As that (kinda-bad) plan shows, new circuits to the panel, no POCO work.



Hmm, started taking in those DIY books to read in 5th grade (I'm now going into 9th), watching people do work (IE various peoples' renovations), and of course the many fine guys/gals here at ECN. And yes, I've since tossed the DIY books. Then again, I was able to point out the errors in them the second I opened them.



Reason #1 I love this forum: you learn something new everyday. Now someone has to call Falls Township




Hmm, I have the same exact situation. My uncle's an EE for Comcast, used to work with my father, and after the township (in NJ) telling him 'NO' a few times, is telling everyone to eschew the permits.



Takes a sip from Squishee Will do.

And thanks for the compliments guys. Also thanks to Les for that info. Now I can tell my folks they might not need a permit/inspections.

Oh, one last thing: on that plan where it says 'bug light,' I mean a motion-sensor floodlight (one of the ones that kinda-sorta-maybe looks like bug-eyes.)

Ian A.

Ian,

With this being the internet, we have posters from all over US, and in other countries. Bob tries to remind everyone, to be cautious when posting issues, where laws, or regulations apply, because they differ for every area.

For example: In Mass,
"However here homeowners are not required to pull permits and in fact some cities and towns will refuse to inspect homeowner work."

In Jersey,
homeowners are required to pull permits, and in some New Jersey cities, and towns they will refuse to permit some homeowner work. Edited: (If the owner can not show how they intend to do the work)

Les,

Like I said, a call to Falls Township is in order to figure out the laws here.

I have a feeling the township's policy is <$1000 = no permit, as that's they charge $147 for the first $1000, then up. Like I said, I don't know. Gotta call Falls.

Ian A.

ALTA and CLTA title insurance, which is standard in almost every real estate transaction, does not cover any physical defects with respect to the property, all it does is insure against title defects. If a home or building with title insurance, but no fire insurance, burns down due to previous un-permitted or un-inspected work, the title insurance company doesn't pay a single penny; they might feel bad, but they're not cutting a check.

Some title insurance companies now offer coverage for un-permitted or un-licensed work - at extra cost of course - but only to the extent that it affects title. For example, if a illegal work prevents a home or building from getting a valid CO and the illegal work has to be torn out as a condition for obtaining the CO, that would be covered since this affects title of the property with respect to occupancy and use. But again, this is extra and is not typical in most real estate transactions.

Ironically, if the home or building burns down subsequently as a result of illegal work (and it wasn't caught), that wouldn't be covered because it never affected the transfer of valid title.



Then what's the point of a permit then, if not for safety? Is it just to bust the chops of the EC and/or home or building owner? I hope we're not getting caught so caught up in the process that we're forgetting what the end result is (or should be) and that is safety. More and more though, it seems the primary focus of permits is to more efficiently increase property tax assessments - at least that's what we're seeing around here. As soon as a job is signed off on, owners get an increased notice of value. Disgusting. Maybe this is why Ian's parents don't want to get a permit for the electrical or the deck for that matter - they don't want to get the increased tax bill that may invariably follow.

Still gotta give Ian lots of credit though, how many folks his age are even aware of permit requirements and work like this? The only permits most folks his age seem to know about are drivers permits, and that's about it.

Joe

Bob, I was just kidding

Ian (both) looking back on my post, I meant to just ask a quetion, and I came across as a little too scornful, I came across as sounding like "I don't think you can do the work" when I meant to say "where and how did you learn to do the work," maybe I'm just a bit jealous, I would've loved to have this oppertunity a few years ago.
I searched the Falls Township codes website, they had a chapter on plumbing, but not electrical work, maybe the state issues permits for electric??? (In the state of Washington only the major cities have their own permits/inspections, all the smaller towns, cities, and suburbs use the state)

edit: re-read one of Ian's posts, he obviously knows a lot more about permitting in his town then I could learn through 5 min of searching on-line
-Will "sticking my foot in my mouth, again" D.

Some information on title insurance:

Depending on the title company, consumers can choose among a variety of options, but the top three choices are Owners, Lender's and Extended Coverage.


Basic Owner's Title Policy Coverage:
Clear title to the property
Incorrect signatures on documents
Forgery, fraud
Defective recordation
Restrictive covenants
Encumbrances or judgments

Basic Lender's Title Policy Coverage:
Mechanic's liens and unrecorded liens
Unrecorded easements and access rights
Defects and other unrecorded documents

Extended Owner's Coverage
[Building permit violations from previous owners]
Subdivision maps
Covenant violations from previous owners
Living trusts
Structure damage from mineral extractions
Variety of encroachments and forgeries after title insurance is issued


The issue is, if they have the title insurance, they are protected from liability issues from the previous owner, including
permit violations, from previous owners.

In order for the current homeowners policy to stay whole, it is their responsibality to obtain permits when and where required.

LK:
You said "some towns in NJ refuse to inspect HO permits"
I have to ask.....what towns, and WHY?
Not to preach NJUCC to the forum.....but....HO who resides/owns single family, can do elec (& plumb).
Permit would be required for Ian's job, and based on his drawing and the 'correct' answers regarding wiring method & box fill, he would be on his way. As to the legality...his parents would have to fill out & sign the app's, as he is still a minor & the property is not 'owned'; by him.

That part said...
Ian...call the Twp before you re-rant please.
All this may have been in vain.

John

PS: I would like to see a clearer version of your plan, and you should have notes indicating box sizes & wiring method to be installed.

Please e-mail it to me to keep the forum open.
John

Not to inspect, but to issue permit.

Milltown, applicant had no plans.

Old Bridge, applicant for inground pool, same thing no plans.

Homeowners call us to ask for plans, and would we instruct them on installation.

John,

while your here, what is the issue with more then two family, needing sealed enginering prints?

While is is correct that many areas do not require a permit or inspection for improvements under a certain dollar amount, they almost ALWAYS require it if there is plumbing or electrical work involved. For instance, the rule will read: A permit and inspection shall be required for improvements costing over $500.00, OR ANY improvement involving plumbing or electrical work. This is also true of licensing requirements in my state. An unlicensed person may perform work under a certain dollar amount, UNLESS it involves plumbing or electrical work. The local unlicensed handy persons do not seem to ever read past the word "unless".

That I'm not doing. (Next time I need to rant, I'll go to Blogger or something else...) And I have a feeling it might have been for nothing.



Will do.

Ian A.

"inspection shall be required for improvements costing over $500.00"

Here in jersey a job under $500 does not require a written contract, however there is no lower limit on when you need a permit.

Different areas, different rules.

FWIW, I un-officially started in the electrical trade when I was 14 (running romex and wiring stuff). Now, as to the quality of the work I did, that's another story all together! Let's just say it would probably make for a few good "violation" pictures.

Hello everyone, this seems like a good thread for my first post. In my part of the world, HO can get permits and do his/her own work, but all work must stand inspection. Small jobs<$500 do not have to be permitted at all.

Wire twister,

Welcome to ECN!

Welcome aboard, it's good to have you with us.
Ian

Les:
A HO, single family, owner occupied, can do his own elec/plumb with permit. HO permits require information on proposed install, and depending on scope of job, can be written or drawing or both. (Owner generated)

Multi family require LIC. EC, period. Drawings/specs may be acceptable when prepared by EC, again dependent on scope of job

I'll review in UCC and get back to you on specifics

John

Les:
The UCC has specifics as to plans prepared by EC/Plumber, dependent on the Use Group of the structure, the Square footage, height, & number of stories. If I only had a scanner!

As a side note, now that this turned into a thread jack.....
Ever wonder how many "Jersey Guys" know of, or have seen a copy of the UCC??? I had one at the last association meeting ask if he could xerox mine! HaHa....all 900+ pages..

Give me a call if you want more....or lets start a Jersey thread.
John

And remember that rules can change over time. As anyone who has followed the discussions in the Non-U.S. area will know, residential electrical in the U.K. now has a certain amount of regulation, with jobs involving some works being notifiable to the local council, others not. Until a couple of years ago though, there was no regulation whatsoever and the official position was "Do whatever you like."