This is the first Hot Tub I've installed that uses straight 240V, no neutral. It has a light in the bottom that I'll assume is low voltage. Thing looks more complex than the motherboard of my PC.

Anyway, the only GFCI 2 pole breakers I've seen and used have a white neutral pigtail and a terminal for the load neutral.

Do I connect the pigtail to the neutral bus or tape it off?

Do I need to get a "straight 240V" GFCI 2 Pole breaker?

I mistakenly installed 6-3 w/#10G, do I attach the neutral up anyway even thought the neutral isn't connected at the hottub?

Will the 120/240V 2 Pole GFCI Breaker work on straight 240V (I'll assume it will, I mean you can luck out and balance a load perfectly...)

I just want the thing to work, the suppliers have never heard of a striaght 240V 2 pole GFCI breaker, and I can't get anything from anybody around here but alot of head scratching and shoulder shrugging.

-Virgil '66



[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 05-07-2001).]

'66,

Use a standard 240v GFCI Breaker.
The Instructions packaged with it tell you what to do about the Neutral. I'll look and see if I have a copy of instruictions somewhere and post.

Is this inside or out?
What kind of disconnect are you going to use?

Bill

Virgil,

At the panel, you will connect the white wire from the 2 pole GFI breaker.

There is no need to connect a white wire out to the tub if it isn't needed at that end.

A 2 pole breaker works the same way as a 1 pole except in this case 2 hots & the grounded conductor pass through a little transformer. If the imbalance of current exceeds a certain value, the breaker will trip. In other words, amps flowing out must equal amps coming back (or real close to it). The reason that the breaker neutral is connected is that the trip mechanism may work on 120 volts and the instructions (that piece of paper that you thought was packing material ) will most likely tell you to connect it.

Visit the International Association of Electrical Inspectors at http://www.iaei.com & you should find the following book for sale, which will tell you more than you care to know about GFI'S.

Overcurrents and Undercurrents by Earl W. Roberts

HTH

Tom

It's rather difficult to read instructions on a breaker that I haven't ordered yet...

Sounds like to me a 120/240V GFCI Breaker would be much more complex and more costly than a straight 240V (with no neutral) if such an animal exists. I visualize needing three coils (line to line, line to ground A leg, line to ground B leg) in a 120/240V GFCI breaker and only one coil for a straight 240V (Line to line). Perhaps said coils are integrated into one, but albeit more complex and expensive.

If a cheaper straight 240V exists, I'm sure my customer would appreciate me getting one.

As far as a Disco, raintite GE (or SQ D if I have to get the expensive ones).

Do you need a disco for a residence??

Virgil,

All three lines pass through the coil and only one coil is needed. No manufacturer is going to make 2 models when 1 will do the job. There would be very little savings by eliminating the white wire pigtail & one connection for the load side grounded conductor.

If your customer can afford a hot tub, he can afford to pay for the breaker.

Tom

[This message has been edited by Tom (edited 05-07-2001).]

But, conversely, if they did make two types, then it would probably be a violation of 110-3(b)to use the wrong one, if it's specified use is in it's instruction and labeling.

Steve, 680-12, I see no exceptions, but I suppose if it is cord and plug connected (this one isn't) then the cord/plug would qualify as a disco.

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 05-07-2001).]

'66,

(I know)

What I meant was to order/buy the breaker as it is a standard type and the instructions will tell you what you need to know.

Btw,
They have some that come as a disconnect, basically a little subpanel with the GFCI breaker installed already. This is that easiest and you don't have to deal with trying to locate 2 pole GFCI breakers for every type of panel.

Bill

I didn't see where anyone tackled this question, yet.

If you left it white and hooked it to the GFCI, any current that ever travels on it would not trip the GFCI.

If the GFCI protection relies for this equipment on there being no neutral current, then I would not hook the white wire to the neutral on the CB.

I say green tape the white wire at both ends and use it for an extra ground.
I see a plus to using this for extra fault current on a 240 V hot tub.
Call it the back up grounding conductor as if you intended it that way all along.
Having a #6 ground makes sense since I infer that this tub has a 50 A CB and is distinctly a wet and barefoot location.

As for the white pigtail on the CB itself, I would hook it to the neutral bar even though it technically carries nothing. That's probably the only way it is intended to be installed.

I'm getting confused here,
680-12 and 680-38
siwtch....no switch ???

Didn't mean to sound so caustic...

...and I didn't know there was just one type, and it takes so long to order the right part around here that one wishes to get things right the first time.

No one else that I know of installs discos in residential hot tub installs, but it does say it right there in black and white. (680-12)

If I put a GFCI WP Recept (W/ an in-use cover) for landscape lighting transformer under the deck, but within 5 ft. of the hottub (under the deck that is under the hot tub), am I busting 680-41(a)(1)? The deck will have an hatch in the lattice to access the receptacle.

Those special purpose discos w/ the GFCI breaker, what brand? That sounds like a great idea.

Ahhh... Steve, I didn't see that one, and we were posting at about the same time...

I'm confused too... Any takers?

Sorry I got a little sore at the instructions thing... I have the reputation of reading instructions, and with all the comments from the other workers that go with it..."don't know how to put up a fan, there sparky?"

For the most part, Hot tub installers do their own electrical work so I have little experience with them. I was also asked the same question by a gentleman who was grandfathered in and I had the same head scatching, shoulder shrugging response. Now I know what to do and what to tell anyone that asks!

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 05-07-2001).]

'66,

I think We had this conversation before somewhere. Don would know the particulars. I just remember having the same thought about what to do with the Neutral and that it is covered in the Instructions.

I've seen 2 types of Disconnect/with GFCI. One is really nothing more than a Sub panel with a GFCI Breaker in it. I've seen it come as a package in 40, 50, and 60 amp models.

The other is a pullout with a BlankFace (120v) GFCI which monitors all 3 conductors and controls the coil for the Load Contactor. Because the GFCI is 120v it needs at least a #12 neutral even if the Load doesn't need it. See Illustration Below:



Spec sheet:
https://www.electrical-contractor.net/theory/240vGFCI-Relay.pdf

Bill

I may need to take this question over to Electrical Theory...


Will this GFCI detect a balanced leakage, e.g., a 1.0000 ampere leakage on T1 and 1.0000 ampere on T2?

Dspark,

That's a good question.
My first reaction would be to say no. But when thinking of it as a complete circuit (going back to source) I'm confused. You're right, a good Theory topic.

I just noticed the Labelling seems to be wrong on the diagram. the Neutral goes thru the contactor and becomes T1 ??

Do you see that the same way or is it my tired eyes (I didn't draw it) If you agree it's wrong I'll correct it somehow.

Bill

I have been corrected on the disco.
680-12 applies to the entire article, is a disco, 680-38 is talking about an E-stop, sorry for the digression...

I hate to beat a dead horse, but does the disconnect required by 680-12, require an insulated ground, installed in a raceway, as per 680-25(d)

Well, I've completely blown this one...

We're still awaiting the breaker to be delivered, so all it not lost. However...

1) I must admit that I didn't know about the disco thing either, Steve. (I thought you had saved me with the mention of 680-38. That's why I kept quiet about it til now...)

2) I used NM Cable in PVC raceway in outdoor (wet) situation.

3) The NM Cable has a bare ground.

4) The general contractor bought most of the materials, so I had to piece together all kinds of crazy stuff...

5) the city building inspector will probably pass it...

So, what do I do? Move on? Go back and fix everything for free? I find it ironic that the PoCo wants me to become an inspector... boy they must be desperate...


[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 05-08-2001).]

Kicking myself for not noticing that!


If I put a GFCI WP Recept (W/ an in-use cover) for landscape lighting transformer under the deck, but within 5 ft. of the hottub (under the deck that is under the hot tub), am I busting 680-41(a)(1)? The deck will have an hatch in the lattice to access the receptacle.

Sorry about the repeat, but I need to know

Can I run NMC through 1-1/2" PVC to the disco, then go with THHN from there to the Hot Tub and convert the last three feet to Carflex (NM Flexible Tubing)? The 1-1/2" PVC is already there, as is the #6-3 10G NMB cable. In fact, it's all hooked up and waiting for a GFCI breaker. (Uh, sans disco at this point, but I'll put one in...crap... )

Yeah, it's messed up. L1 should go to T1, L2 to T2, and N to N. I wasn't looking at the specific wires, but rather how it detects an imbalance.


I was thinking about the coil and the field that would be produced in it by the three conductors.

So long as equal currents flow through T1 and T2 and N has zero, I am suspicious that the net field would be zero no matter where the current from T1 and T2 ended up.

Virgil;
If you're good enough to serve as example for us all to learn, we'll not pick apart your job.....

who of us can toss the first wirenut?

(OK, Wiring Diagram is fixed)

'66,

In response to your question about the receptacle under the hot tub I think you're OK (my opinion) I've done similar in the past and it was deemed Ok. The distance (I believe) is considered as a cord would follow and without going through any wall or partition.

Any Inspectors in the House?


Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Addiss (edited 05-09-2001).]

Oh my...

In reading some posts of a week or two ago, I noticed that there was an entire thread on NM Cable feeding outdoor Spa Disconnect .

Where the H-E-double-hockey-sticks was I that thread anyway?

Kicking myself in the butt...




[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 05-11-2001).]

To whom it may concern,

Something worth mentioning here is that there is a search feature that can be used to find info on a specific subject. Look on top right side somewhere.

And there is also a spellcheck at the bottom when you compose your comments.


Bill

sparky66wv,
Bear in mind that a consensus was not reached on feeding the disco. with NM.