A builder told me today that he wanted to knock a few bucks off his bill because he's not going to have us wire up the appliances (i.e. dishwasher, range, cooktop, etc.) from now on.

I told him that I would love to "knock a few bucks off" except that he doesn't pay me to wire up appliances in the first place. If the dishwasher happens to get delivered and I am working the finish that day I might slide it in under the counter and connect the wire but I don't charge him for it. He pays for me to supply wiring to the point of junction not to install the appliance. Am I wrong here? Shouldn't the people who are delivering the appliances and charging him an install fee be making those final connections?

Is there a standard?

Everybody does it different. I've had contractors use appliance installers and that's fine with me, but it's not going to change my bill much. I will take a few bucks off if I don't have to install a double oven, but not for the dishwasher. I won't "install" a cooktop with a downdraft either way, but I will wire it once they install it.

If you want to continue working for the contractor and he pays good, then take off a few bucks ($10ea) for the large appliances, but stand firm on the small ones that only take 2 minutes to install.

Happi,

The delivery people don't connect/disconnect appliances where I'm from. They would be required to be Licensed.

I personally would rather not have to do them, but I think it is the Electricians' responsibility. If someone asked me that I would insist that the builder sign something saying he was responsible for hookup and have it noted on any Inspection certificates that I did not make the final connections.

Bill

That's the thing - its usually the dishwasher too. For instance today - i stopped by this finish on my way out to hook up the dishwasher - the oven, the cooktop and everything else was already hooked up...
That's what I'm talking about - I don't usually hook up the appliances...

Here in NJ I would wire up the appliance and I would charge for it. However I would not install it. I lft that up to the appliance installers. I didn't have the tools to cut formica nor did I want to take a chance.

What do you guys do about the Range Hoods? Around here the Tinbashers supply them and we always seem to be hanging them. Dishwashers always seem to get us brownie points though for how simple they are.

Heck, I've installed icemakers just to keep the peace...

I make any appliance i can a receptacled device, (422.16..et all..) under sink , usually a 2 circuit deal if there is a pig, micro receptacle in upper cabinet, etc....


the GC can cut corners where s/he likes, it's then up to the appliance guys to come when they like, & provide the proper pigtail...

I wire all appliances that I provide branch circuits for.

If I did not provide the branch circuit then I have to do a little snooping around $$$$ to determine if the circuit is sized properly to connect.

Hi Sparky;
Showing off my ignorance again...what is a "pig"?

Sorry...I think I figgered it out (kinda slow today)...Pigtail.

Mike (mamills)

[This message has been edited by mamills (edited 09-13-2002).]

Hey Happi,We seem to do the disposals,dish washers.But like the dryers adding the pigtail is not usually part of our deal.We will do it if provided at the time of us being there.Boss wants everyone smilely faced at the end of a job.But under no circumstances do we install anything that has to be leveled or plumbed We`ll slide in the DW but not bolt to cabinet.The range hoods are done after instalation they hang it and put in the romex connector we leave on the wire with a big note use this connector for hood wire leave wire inside electrician will hook up.

Yeah - the reason I ask in the first place is because I want to do what is expected of us of course...but normally when we do go by to hook up the dishwasher the oven and cooktop are already installed and wired into the junction that we provided.

I mean if the oven comes and the cabinet isn't cut out to the proper size (which happens frequently) - what am I gonna do whip out my sawzall and make it fit? I don't think so...

mamills,

Close, but no cigar!!
Pig = GD

Redsy: Thanks! I'll put that in my glossary...like that term.

Mike (mamills)

yup...like the Flinestones!

We always install the appliances if they are electric. We dont usually install the cord on the dryer. I charge for appliance installation on a different scale. 18 bucks for the recept to make you microwave work but an extra $50 to mount it in the cabinet with the pretty trim kit. Remote blower hood... get out the check book!

In my work which consists of MANY kitchen renovations I do not install appliances. The kitchen people install them and I connect them. Oddly enough when there is one guy on the job, the appliances are ready to go in, which means I get to help! A couple of months ago I damaged (broke) a $1200.00 electric cooktop. Bad Bad day! Thank goodness for insurance.

Cord connections, especially those designed for 50 amp electric ranges, and 30 amp electric clothes dryers, when installed by a lazy person, will usually avoid installation of the required connector that will secure the cord to the frame of the equipment.

In the 70's, while inspecting an apartment house in Glendale, California I found that the appliance people who were delivering the equipment put the cords through the open razor sharp hole, and threw away the connector.

Well, I sat there in my car, or on my harley servi-car {can't remember}, and noted that situation on the back of my permit.

On the final inspection I asked the installer to pull a few of the ranges, and dryers away from the wall!

There were 250 units. I said nothing except that I could not final the job, and would be happy to return when all of the 500 cords were properly installed.

I would like to hear from anyone who is reading this message (now is the time to post your first message) who finds this in their own home or apartment.

Joe - I would have to agree with you. Most of the large appliances I see do not have any type of connector on the cord. I think part of the reason for this is that the connectors they include with the cords many times will not work well with the hole in the appliance but that is no excuse for not installing one that will work. If new appliances are being installed at a project we are working on I always tell the general contractor to pay us to install the cords. I often use a standard 3/4" or 1" 2-screw cable connector. Another problem that I am starting to see when unqualified people install the cords is that they fail to remove the jumper from the neutral to the frame when installing 4-wire cords. Failing to remove this jumper turns our equipment grounding system into a parallel neutral path.

As far as installing other appliance we will always make the electrical connections but that's as far as we go.

Curt

This is the connector described above, and it is the "only" one that should be used.

The connector should be installed with one part of the rounded clamp inside of the equipment knockout, and the other part on the outside of the knockout.

It is not difficult and I hope someone can produce the instructions that come with the overall assembly.

Hoo boy...

I had always considered those type of connectors "junk"... some cheapo poor excuse for a connector some "ferrin" outfit supplies...

I've always replaced them with 3/4" NM Connectors. I really hadn't thought about the listing violations.

Guess I need to learn how to install the dern things right... The only time I tried to use one, I gave up after it fell out a few times due to the weight of the cord.

66, I'm with you on that! But since I havent put on a three wire flat cord in about six years I'll stick to the 3/4" NWT connector for the round cord. Just don't tell anyone!

Joe - Why is that the only connector that should be used? I seen nothing wrong with using a 2-screw cable connector. What type of connector are we supposed to use when installing cords on disposals and dishwashers since they don't include one? The connectors included with range and dryer cords will NOT work with K.O. provided many of the appliances. Even if they do fit most of the time they will come right out if you move the cord around.

If you go to T&B's web site and look at connectors 3302 - 3311 it says "Non-Metallic Sheathed Cable and Flexible Cord Connectors".

Curt

[This message has been edited by caselec (edited 09-14-2002).]

I just looked at a new 30A, 125/250V, 10/3 AWG SRDT, 6ft dryer cord here in SEARS that was supplied with a similar fitting like the one above. I then looked at another cord of the same configuration and found a different type of nonmetallic connetor that was supplied with a nonmetallic locknut, so I guess that I would be wrong by saying ONLY.


I would not have any problems if I could be sure that the connector was properly installed.

Joe,

ouldn't it be better using the cord, because there you have your disconnect. If it is hard wired wouldn't you need a breaker lock?

Caper

good point harold endean.....

yet the average homeowner is unaware of LOTO, and the appliance on/off is usually not LOTO friendly....

we could progress to 422.34....430.42....430.102....etc,etc....

Naw, mount a SqD 70A Disco on the wall above the Unit for them to admire...

Caper:

Not very common to see a disconnect used in dwellings, and if a cord it to be considered as the way to disconnect an electric range it has to meet the conditions here:

422.33 Disconnection of Cord-and-Plug-Connected Appliances.


(B) Connection at the Rear Base of a Range. For cord-and-plug-connected household electric ranges, an attachment plug and receptacle connection at the rear base of a range, if it is accessible from the front by removal of a drawer, shall be considered as meeting the intent of 422.33(A).

I understand there are some area's that require a counter top switch for the dishwasher, in addition to it's integral one

anyone care to comment?

I always put a cord on the dishwasher and a receptacle under the sink. Keeps me from wondering where a "unit switch with a marked off positon" applies.