Recessed Can Over Tub - ECN Electrical Forums

I am in a "debate" with a with an inspector about a can light over a tub. I consider that to be a damp location rather than a wet location as pertains to 410.4 (a)(d). Maybe I'm missing something, is there a code requirement on a sealed vs. open trim?

[This message has been edited by arseegee (edited 08-15-2002).]

Wet location...sealed lens

I'm not an expert and I don't even know what part of the code to refer to but I thought it had to be a sealed (shower) trim...

Code reference?
Thanks

An open trim can get water splashed in. Here's the section that comes to mind immediately (99 code). Wet/damp won't matter here. Needs sealed lens either way.

410-4. Fixtures in Specific Locations
(a) Wet and Damp Locations. Fixtures installed in wet or damp locations shall be installed so that water cannot enter or accumulate in wiring compartments, lampholders, or other electrical parts. All fixtures installed in wet locations shall be marked, “Suitable for Wet Locations.” All fixtures installed in damp locations shall be marked, “Suitable for Wet Locations” or “Suitable for Damp Locations.”

Thanks Steve, to play devils advocate:
The fixture is listed for damp. Same as used in an open air porch or soffit(aka damp location).
Water splashed from a bathroom sink could enter a vanity light. Is that a wet location?

We've always used a sealed lens in a shower or over tub. I can see if this is a tub, not a shower that a regular can might be acceptable. As long as it's not life threatening, I say put in the trim the inspector wants to see, wait 'til he's been gone 5 minutes and put in the one the customer wants. I personally would only use a par bulb to reduce the risk of a bulb shattering from a drop of water.

I'm curious to know if height of the fixture from the bottom of the tub plays any part here (didn't see anything about this in the NEC). I could imagine someone standing in a damp tub and reaching up to change a burned out lamp. Eagle's point is well taken about using a PAR lamp.

Mike (mamills)

a worthy Q mike...
410.4(A) "wet & damp locations" is not, in 410.4(D), specified as to either/or.

The 'zone' in (D) ...

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a zone measured 900 mm (3 ft) horizontally and 2.5 m (8 ft) vertically from the top of the bathtub rim or shower stall threshold. This zone is all encompassing and includes the zone directly over the tub or shower stall.

interesting in that a 'damp' location is mentioned for hot tubs in 680.43, allbeit GFI protection is prerequisite.....

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(1) Recessed luminaires (fixtures) with a glass or plastic lens, nonmetallic or electrically isolated metal trim, and suitable for use in damp locations
(2) Surface-mounted luminaires (fixtures) with a glass or plastic globe, a nonmetallic body, or a metallic body isolated from contact, and suitable for use in damp locations

so it's damp over a hot tub & wet in a shower?

well in a mobile home it is..(550.14 (D))

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(D)
Bathtub and Shower Luminaires (Fixtures). Where a luminaire (lighting fixture) is installed over a bathtub or in a shower stall, it shall be of the enclosed and gasketed type listed for wet locations.

so why is this any different than a dwelling?

[This message has been edited because sparky's all wet (edited 08-16-2002).]

[This message has been edited by sparky (edited 08-16-2002).]

Couldn't get in touch w/inspector this morning to continue our "discussion". Went to job and home owner was not happy about the sealed trims. He got his certificate of occupancy but wants the open trims over the tub. I'll turn my head the other way I guess and let him change them to what he wants. Does this code article seem to have some grey area or what? When I get to my inspector (who has called me before to help him on the code) I'm gonna ask the specific definition of what is a wet, dry and damp location in a bathroom.

Assuming the listed fixture requires "x" trim and customer wants "y" trim.

"x" trim is installed for the inspection, then changed to "y" by the contractor.

The contractor knows the install is a violation.

A catastrophe happens evolving the fixture, who pays?

I have found some recessed cans that require sealed trims when installing over a tub or shower. In the situation here I usually do what is required and they can do whatever they want when I'm gone.

More code ref, from 517.2.......

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Wet Locations.
Those patient care areas that are normally subject to wet conditions while patients are present. These include standing fluids on the floor or drenching of the work area, either of which condition is intimate to the patient or staff. Routine housekeeping procedures and incidental spillage of liquids do not define a wet location.

The definition of patient care area applies to hospitals as well as patient care areas in outpatient facilities. A patient bed location in a nursing home can be considered a patient care area if a person is examined or treated in that location. However, it excludes such areas as laundry rooms, boiler rooms, and utility areas, which, although routinely wet, are not patient care areas. The governing body of the health care facility may elect to include such areas as hydrotherapy areas, dialysis laboratories, and certain wet laboratories under this definition. Lavatories or bathrooms within a health care facility are not intended to be classified as wet locations. For infection control purposes, many patient and treatment areas have a sink for hand washing, which is not intended to be a wet location either.

interesting referal to 'bathrooms' eh?

still looking......

art. 100 Location,Wet.
Installation under ground or in concrete slabs or masonry in direct contact with earth; in locations subject to saturation with water or other liquids such as vehicle washing areas; and in unprotected locations exposes to weather.

Doesn't sound like the ceiling above a tub in a dwelling falls under wet location to me.

My fixture trim and housing are both listed for "damp location".

Hop in Joe T and help me out.

I too agree, its not a "wet location" in your case, and this situation has been the subject of proposed changes in the past and was not considered.

The mobile home shower -- if it the "whole room in the bathroom" gets used as a shower, then the entire area is probably correctly considered as a wet location. I too need a specific reference that was not available for me when I searched the code.

I just checkedout a Halo can and read all the fine print. It is suitable for use indoors and outdoors. Can be used in damp locations. Can be used in wet locations with Halo shower trims. Does this get us anywhere?

Escott, My Lithonia LCP can and CO2 trim are both listed for damp too and they got turned down. I am going to track down my inspector monday morning and I'll post his explaination. I think they're just shooting from the hip on this one. I can't see how this is a wet location at all.

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I'll post his explaination

a revelation i'm sure.....ask why the code would specify different circuit /distance requirements for bodily immersion.....

betcha a coffee he dunno!....

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680.22(B) Luminaires (Lighting Fixtures), Lighting Outlets, and Ceiling-Suspended (Paddle) Fans.
(1) New Outdoor Installation Clearances. In outdoor pool areas, luminaires (lighting fixtures), lighting outlets, and ceiling-suspended (paddle) fans installed above the pool or the area extending 1.5 m (5 ft) horizontally from the inside walls of the pool shall be installed at a height not less than 3.7 m (12 ft) above the maximum water level of the pool.
(2) Indoor Clearances. For installations in indoor pool areas, the clearances shall be the same as for outdoor areas unless modified as provided in this paragraph. If the branch circuit supplying the equipment is protected by a ground-fault circuit interrupter, the following equipment shall be permitted at a height not less than 2.3 m (7 ft 6 in.) above the maximum pool water level:
(1) Totally enclosed luminaires (fixtures)
(2) Ceiling-suspended (paddle) fans identified for use beneath ceiling structures such as provided on porches or patios
(3) Existing Installations. Existing luminaires (lighting fixtures) and lighting outlets located less than 1.5 m (5 ft) measured horizontally from the inside walls of a pool shall be not less than 1.5 m (5 ft) above the surface of the maximum water level, shall be rigidly attached to the existing structure, and shall be protected by a ground-fault circuit interrupter.
(4) GFCI Protection in Adjacent Areas. Luminaires (lighting fixtures), lighting outlets, and ceiling-suspended (paddle) fans installed in the area extending between 1.5 m (5 ft) and 3.0 m (10 ft) horizontally from the inside walls of a pool shall be protected by a ground-fault circuit interrupter unless installed not less than 1.5 m (5 ft) above the maximum water level and rigidly attached to the structure adjacent to or enclosing the pool.
(5) Cord-and-Plug-Connected Luminaires (Lighting Fixtures). Cord-and-plug-connected luminaires (lighting fixtures) shall comply with the requirements of 680.7 where installed within 4.9 m (16 ft) of any point on the water surface, measured radially.

Sparky, do you want cream and sugar in your coffee...he ain't gonna know.

Thanks arseegee....caffine & sugar breakfast of champions.....

perhaps an ROP would reveal the NEC rationale?

Got in touch with Ye Ole Inspector today, stated my case and he said "huh, well what about the 8ft, 3ft rule above the tub". I replied thats addresses pendants and paddle fans, "huh, you might be right, that may be a DAMP location, I'll look it up and call you back". Still waiting on his call.

After reading a bit my inspector calls me back and said the area above a residential tub is a DAMP LOCATION. SEALED LENS NOT REQUIRED.

And the electricians and inspectors lived happily ever after.

Not for nothing, (and I am not taking sides.) I think it takes a big person ( inspector or contractor) to admit to being wrong. When I was a contractor, I thought more of an inspector that would apologize about his choice and changed his mind. (Though in 15 years of my own business I only saw it happen once or twice.) As an inspector,If I think the contractor might be right, I do not have a problem agreeing with him. (Nor do I hold it against him) The worst case is when something is very "gray" (grey?) and we both have a valid point. Then I try to go with what ever is safer.

Caper