Hoo boy, what a day...

You know, no good deed goes unpunished.

Let me start from the beginning:

A little more than a month ago, I started this thread about code violations that I found after taking over a job where the electrical contractor had split. Immediate concerns of liability came into play since these houses are being leased for about $1M and customers with that kind of money sue people regularly as a hobby. I could only imagine the Fire Marshall sifting through the ashes and myself receiving a subpeona to appear in court for negligence.

So I reported what I had found, and they told me to continue with my report. So I took more pictures of random receptacles and other violations I had come across, and gave them a report, with a little help from you kind folks here.

Well, the guilty culprit shows up on my job today, with a look that could kill demanding another report from me stating that the last report was merely my opinion and not fact, and that a certain employee of the General Contractor's persuaded me to do the report... "or all h*ll will break loose" he says.

So, I'm thinking he either wants to kick my @$$ or he has a slander lawsuit in mind.

So I'm freaking at this point, and I call my favorite local inspector, who tells me in so many words that "we all make mistakes, we're all doing the best we can, none of us are perfect, you should only be concerned about yourself and I would NOT have done anything like what you did, and I don't want to be involved."

Called another inspector and "I can agree with your liability concerns for why you did this, but I won't inspect the place for you to back you up on it..." Oh, and he regulary uses those little boxes too...
I called him on it and said "for what? Phone wire?" and he got a little miffed. Guess I've really been putting my foot in my mouth alot lately.

So anyway before I continue, I solemnly promise to Bill that I will NOT proceed with the following plan until I have permission from him to do so... I don't expect that he'll want to get involved in a slander lawsuit, but here goes.

My choices are either to lie about the violations, apologize, and help persuade the General Contractor to pay this guy and get him off my back...

Or... (here goes) with help from the plethora of professionals here to back me up, I'll stand my ground and give him a report stating that it is not only my opinion, but the opinion of several other electrical contractors, inspectors, etc and here are their names and credentials.

My idea is to get some posts on the other thread from you guys and gals to help me point out that most of these aren't just nit-picky violations, but real fire and electrocution hazards exist here.

Or am I just plain wrong?



[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 07-10-2002).]

sparky66wv,
The way I see it a code violation is a code violation until it is corrected. Mistakes do happen just like that old saying "S**T Happens" But when they are pointed out they should be corrected.
May be the ECN lawyer could offer some well needed advice here. ( I can't seem to remember his user name ) I am with ya on this one, but unfortunately in court just because you are right does not mean you will win. If all you did was point out the violations and write them up I don't really see why this is a big deal, it happens everyday. Is the GC holding back a large some of money owed because of this?Wirewiz

Virgil,
There is nothing legally, nor morally, wrong with pointing out code violations prior to assuming a half finished contract. I've batted it around with you long enough on this forum to pretty much guess you did not go off half-cocked, and what I saw were certainly non-standard and sloppy trade practices.
I'm sure Rob (our attorney) will tell you that truth is a defense against slander, or libel, it is also a defense against being charged with it. IOW, you pointed out code violations that were obvious and pointed them out with no malice aforethought, so tough on him.
Wirewiz - That's "CA-CA Occurs" in polite company

hmmm, a meticulous electrician such as yourself Virgil, having to stand his ground alone......a sad commentary on the state of affairs.

Allow me a similar rant....

A 7 unit slum, owned by absentee landlords, filled with section 8's ( welfare) is fed by a number of old (main range & four) panels , all are stuffed with 30A fuses, K&T, BX and older cloth RX throughout. Open splice boxes, hanging wires ( used ad clotheslines in the basement), generally no-no's that the average Joe( nec aside) would consider...

This, a customer of a few years, is sheltered from me by a live in F.Gumplike manager. Thus my concerns are stifled...

One day the state Fire Marshal shows up, requesting Smokes & GFI's throughout. He PASSES BY ALL OF THESE BLATANT VIOLATIONS.
On my inquiry, i am informed that the building has been on the states list 8 YEARS!.
A permit is pulled, the work is done, there is no one that follows up to look at my work,(or note anything else life-threatening) and this is one of many similar scenarios i have had .....

Yesterday, i responded to a 'smoking fixture' in an adjacent building owned by the same landlords. My assessment revealed that there is indeed a smoking K&T joint above a kitchen cieling. The circuit is original, and under load, despite my eliminating the kitchen fixture.

This place is not 'smoked' , nor are thier GFI's, it is the best example of a fire waiting to happen that i can possibly post here. I have informed F.Gump in strong words.
I have , in the past, called the Fire Marshal with little to no fanfare, nor do i feel obligated to if they are luke warm , or do not back me up.
I could care less if i retain said customer, my company is not 'Slums-R-Us', yet i have a number of permits pulled on very similar situations ,some are worded to the extent of "have wiring checked by electrician".
Well if the state is never going to hear me out, back me up, or come back to inspect anything i can blow chucks until the cows come home....

I do advocate the concept of the AHJ, indeed why i am an IAEI member, it just bums me out when they continually drop the #$%& ball....

sparky66wv,

When I find violations as you have and are asked to make a report, I do as you have done by taking pictures and citing the code section that it violates.

You should not need the support of anyone else because you are citing FACT. It is not only your opinion.

If you refer to the proper code articles and sections, etc. There should be no question as to who is right or wrong. Just be D*MN sure YOUR right.

It may take you some time to look up all of the violations but you should have no problem proving your case.

You can give a copy of your report to anyone that is affected and if they don't agree they can try to find someone to prove your wrong.

Now all of this doesen't take into account the "a** kicking" factor. so, weigh your options and take into account all possible risks. Maybe you might just want to walk away from the job.... Your decision, good luck!

who do these <ahem> public servants serve?

That just ticks me off. Stand your ground!

who do these <ahem> public servants serve?

Oh Steve, it get's even worse...

They serve Allegheny Power, and their pocketbooks, apparently...

<disclaimer>Just my opinion.</disclaimer>

Apparently, the Fire Marshall is backing this guy up too. When asked about the taped splices: "they're allowed is some circumstances" hem haw hem haw....

I'm getting ready to upload the report in question so you all can see exactly what I wrote and the pics that I showed.

I'll post later for your viewing pleasure.

And if I deserved being flamed or atleast being told I handled it wrong, then by all means, fire away.

I'd rather learn from mistakes than forever think I was right but be wrong.

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 07-11-2002).]

Hey Sparky,

I'm just waiting for my Inspector's paperwork to get approved by Allegheny Power.

Maybe, once it does, I'll have to make the trip down to visit you.

Go here to see an HTML version of the report. The photos are the same and the words are copy-n-paste straight from the document. The layout is a little different 'cause I haven't figured out cell spacing and padding yet.

Brian, I'd love to have you or George or Joe or WattDoc or anyone here to come down and see this. I'd be happy to let you see my work too...

We were actually threatened with a fire marshal visit, but I said "I'd be happy to show him my work and licenses."

wirewiz, yes, I am to believe that payment due depends on the outcome of all this for him, but that is the doing and choice (as per contract) of the General Contractor.

You did the right thing.....recently I had a similiar situation with one of my clients; he took over a half completed new constuction, he claimed that the previos electrician had a series of code violations and that he documented each and every one. I advised him that before he does a stitch of work on the site that he have an independent inspector come in and write up the job (I advised him not to tell the inspector of his motivation for calling him in)I further advised him to serve a copy of the report on the GC before begining work. My concerns were that if the house burned down the two electricians would be pointing fingers at one another, so the independant inspectors report bails out the second electrician. Further, serving the GC with the violations, puts him on notice and pre-empts possible future litigation. Lastly, few inspectors are going to want to put there name to a document that points a finger on a potential future law suit, its one thing if they point out a violation to the electrian himself, but to say "hey if this house burns down or if anyone is injured...don't look at the second electrician, it was the first electrician's fault"

As far as a defamation/slander claim.....truth is an absolute defense to either. To say he did sloppy work is an opinion, if you stated the facts and the truth and only pointed out violations, your safe.

I say stand your ground.

RMIESQ, thanks for the thumbs up...

It means alot to me right now to have the approval of my friends here.

Thanks.

-Virgil

Rob ( as well as your document) brings up a third party inspector.
If this were so, would he/she overrule the AHJ ? Or would it simply serve as 'mediation'?
The violations ( like lack of GFI's in the kit) are NOT a grey area to novices here.....

So did you actually start the work or is this a report on what you believe needs to be done. Is it possible to walk away at this point. That is what I would do. You have done the right thing without question, you can only make people do what they want to do I guess. File the report with the appropriate authority(s) and leave it it that. You can then move on knowing you did your best to right a wrong. These are CLEAR violations to anyone with any knowledge of the NEC. This would not fly here in Mass. This guy would be before the Board of Electricians for sure.

[This message has been edited by Electricmanscott (edited 07-12-2002).]

I am not sure what AHJ is ? But I dont think that will change my answer. An independant inspector is thrown in the the mix for two reasons.

First, he will document the condition before the second electrician starts work. So god forbid a fire occurs and the ignition source is found to be in a second floor bedroom, If the inspector noted that there was a violation there; it removes liability from the second electrician.

Second if a law suit arises and both electricians are named, each will be pointing fingers at the other. In a situation like that most time the insuance carriers will split the loss, with the inspector he will tip the liability in favor of the first electrician, even if the ignition source was not documented as a violation, all the other violations will create a presumption that the fire was the cause of the first electricians sloppy work.

Rob,
AHJ= 'Authority Having Juristiction'

this , in effect, could be anyone, however the new art 80 in the 02' code attempts to set some workable peramiters for those who choose to adopt it.....here is some opening 'commentary'.....

In this case, the AHJ is either myself, the leasor, the leasee, or the General Contractor (Contruction Managers). The only "real" inspectors merely inspect the service for the Power Company. Their jurisdiction stops at the distribution load center.

Sparky66 --

I would suggest that you simply remove the violations. Simply writing them up and not repairing them might increase your liability.

----

As far as libel/slander.

If you say the electrictian is incompetent, then you have libeled/slandered him and you have no defense.

If you say his work is not to code, then truth is a defense.

The difference is that he can be competent and CHOOSE to do poor work and you cannot prove otherwise.

Best to not comment about people only about specfic instances of their work.

George, there is no such thing as "simply" removing the violations unless you mean taking a bulldozer to the place and starting over... I doubt they'll go for that.

The cables are too short... All of them... The boxes are too small... All of them.

Two stories, finished basement, and "final punch out" has been going on for about a month or two now, and the owner wants it finished "yesterday"...

My hands have been washed clean of the mess, until something bad happens, I guess.

Your advice is taken into consideration, however.

If you haven't already, please take a look at the report and tell me if I have crossed the line.

-Virgil

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 07-14-2002).]

Virgil: My two cents worth..

Your report appears to me to be done in a professional manner. It is succinct, it mentions violations thus far discovered (as well as those possibly yet undiscovered), it cites applicable deviations from the NEC, it indicates terms under which Kelly Electric/Musser Electric will correct said violations, and it does all this without bringing personalities into the picture.

My best wishes to you and others.

Mike (mamills)

66WV,
Sorry I took so long to respond. If I'm ever in your neck of the woods, I'll look you up. One word comes to mind in this situation, and to me, the word is "truth" (as others have stated). It sounds to me like this guy is upset because he knows the "truth", and doesn't want to deal with the fact that he needs to correct his mistakes. If this is anything like the situations I've seen in the past, I'm sure that your expenses are coming out of the payment that the G.C. owes him. IMHO the problem is between the other guy and the GC. I'm sure that he doesn't have the "knads" to go confront the GC, so he thinks he can come pick on you. I think that the GC called you in because they don't know electric from a hole in the ground, and heck, you're just doing what they hired you to do. Which is advise them on what needs to be done, correct problems, and finish the project, so that they can be paid as well. Stand your ground. If you want to actually make the corrections, and finish the project, then be prepared for a bigger fight, or inform the GC that you have documented the violations, advise them that before they make final payment to the other guy the violations should be corrected, send the GC a bill for your time, and walk away. I would add alittle extra in to take Mama out to a nice dinner, heck a movie too, she deserves it.
I trust your judgement on the box fill violations. I'm sure you know how to do the math. The GFI's, and working clearances are so obvious that any apprentice could point them out. I'm behind ya 66!

...she did the "monster" mash,
Doc

Thanks so much for all the support.

Things have quieted down, and the "Electrical Evangelist" has stopped preaching for a while. My co-op partner, Joe, is handling the job, and I am helping him as needed, I'm not on any paper work involved, it's all T&M billed by Joe. (There's a photo shoot coming up tomorrow or Wednesday, and it's hurry-hurry...)

I don't know if they're going to let us do much more than hang fixtures, and so far, the boxes have been big enough, so just bonding and pigtailing is all that's needed for them.

We've hung a lot of "cheap" (relatively) fixtures from Lowe's to take the place of the porcelain keyless lampholders in place and awaiting the arrival of hand-made fixtures from Europe (most likely non-listed/labelled)...

I'm awaiting change-order approval to continue on my contract, which will probably be after tomorrow.

During the photo shoot, we may be asked to move some of the fixtures around to get better subjects... Sounds like a nightmare (sigh)...

Other jobs are piling up, and some are the jobs on this site, landscape lighting and traffic gates are awaiting Joe's attention, and we keep on getting more jobs...

We both are looking for potential apprentices. I've got two hard-working guys in mind, if I can get them to go take the test.

At any rate, I thank you all very much once again. Your opinions are highly valued, and I respect you all very greatly.

-Virgil Kelly

Look Purty for the camera! Hope you can post a pic or two if time allows. Glad to hear there are jobs waiting in the wings.

Mike (mamils)

Sparky66wv,
You stated "In this case, the AHJ is either myself, the leasor, the leasee, or the General Contractor (Contruction Managers)."

Wouldn't the AHJ be the owner, unless he has legally designated someone? Can the electrician or GC AHJ themselves? You have the knowledge and can be liable, but do you have any "Authority" to enforce anything? In don't believe the leasee would voluntarily eliminate his option to sue in the future, even if he could be designated the AHJ.

Gerald Powell

Gerald,

I guess I was referring to AHJ on more of a moral standpoint... As you are right, I suppose, legally the owner would be the AHJ...

Does this mean that if the owner "approves" of the non-compliant and non-UL-listed wares, then I don't have to fix it?

Does this also mean that if an owner insists upon a non-compliant installation (it happens all the time, believe me, I've lost jobs because of it...) and there are no other AHJ's, then I may agree to install in said manner without reprocussions, liability, or any other bad thing coming my way?

I'm confused here...



[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 07-16-2002).]

Here in NJ, every town appoints an AHJ, wether he is from a third party, from the state or is an employee of the town. Some towns cant afford full time inspectors so we might work for several towns on a part time bases. Anyway, when there is a problem between 2 contractors or the homeowner and contractor, I don't act like a judge or jury. I would either allow the first party to fix the problem (if the homeowner allows him back on the property) or get a second contractor to fix the problems. Then they need to do a "change of contractor" permit and call for inspection. The job must be inspected and it has to pass the NEC ( as adopted by my state.)

Harold

sparky66wv,

My posting about who mignt be the AHJ was concerned with my interpretation from Code and government entities. Liability is another issue. I believe your knowledge and experience makes you the most liable in this case. All the way from the NFPA, state and local AHJs and individual inspectors there are disclaimers to hold them non-liable for any part they play in determining the safety of the installation. Even some contracts try to hold the engineer non-liable (hold harmless clauses) and put it all on the installing contractor.

I believe that in no case could you be considered the AHJ for this job, but that is just academic if litigation happens. Even if there is no possibility of you being considered liable should injury be caused by the installation, I'm sure you would let your conscience be the main "AHJ".

Gerald Powell

I don't suppose WV has entertained art 80?

I would consider another carear should i be put in a position to take the fall, without makin' the call.......