ECN Forum
Posted By: watthead Which BatterTools??? - 06/15/02 01:04 PM
I just wanted to find out what the group thinks is the better battery operated tool set combination: drill driver, circular saw, reciprocating saw, and light. Do you prefer the Milwaukee or the DeWalt and why. Both are about the same price. The DeWalt has a bonus radio/charger on a mail in special they have going right now.
Posted By: Bill Addiss Re: Which BatterTools??? - 06/15/02 01:31 PM
I would also be interested in hearing if anyone had any complaints about Battery longevity in these tools. I bought a 14.x volt drill for it's smaller size and weight to carry in a holster. The batteries (extended type?) do not last very long at all now, it is very dissappointing.

I have heard that it may be that I have ruined the batteries by wearing them down too low before charging. Can anyone confirm that this could be a problem?

Bill
Posted By: sparky66wv Re: Which BatterTools??? - 06/15/02 01:46 PM
Enter my RC plane experience:

If they are NiCads, then discharging almost completely, and charging completely is the best darn thing you can do to them.

NiMH and Lithiums are a little diferent, and I have no experience with them.

Love my 18V Mil, but my 14.4V DeWalt does have better battery life. I think Milwaukee's universal chargers are a little iffy and don't charge as well as the DeWalt. I regularly have to remove a battery, then put it back on (without using it) up to three or four times before the battery is charged to capacity. I think the charger is getting fooled into thinking that the batteries are only 14.4V or something and are cutting the charge short.

Could just be an isolated incident though.

I like the Mil Drill, but the Mil Sawzall doesn't have an E-brake and the DeWalt does.

But it is a gen-u-ine Sawzall.

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 06-15-2002).]
Posted By: SamC Re: Which BatterTools??? - 06/15/02 02:54 PM
Try this. When your batteries don't seem to be holding a charge like they use to, completely discharge them and stick them in the freezer for 24 hr. Seems to work as long as the battery is not too old. I was told that if batteries are not completely discharged when recharged they tend to fool the charger into thinking they are charged before they really are. I don't know if its true or not but like I say it seems too work with tool and 2 way radio batteries.

SamC
Posted By: watthead Re: Which BatterTools??? - 06/15/02 03:02 PM
ok but which tools are better????
Posted By: sparky66wv Re: Which BatterTools??? - 06/15/02 03:25 PM
It's a toss up... depends on which features you like the most.

You really can't lose with either choice (unless someone has a war/horror story to tell about one or the other).

I use my DeWalt to drive screws and for mild drilling, and use the Mil for hammer drilling and anything requiring a 1/2" drive.

My Sawzall is comparible to Joe's DeWalt Recip Saw, except that the DeWalt has a brake.

I haven't compared any of the others.
Posted By: EVAD7 Re: Which BatterTools??? - 06/15/02 04:20 PM
MILWAUKEE WINS THIS WAR. I COULDN'T SAY THIS YEARS AGO. WHEN DEWALT WAS BLACK AND DECKER THEY WERE BETTER. AFTER MILW. BOUGHT AEG AND REDESIGNED THEIR DRILL I HAVE HAD BETTER LUCK WITH MILW. DEWALT-PROBLEMS INCLUDE CHUCK SHEARING OFF, BATTERY SHORT LIFE, SWITCH PROBLEMS....
Posted By: Bill Addiss Re: Which BatterTools??? - 06/15/02 05:06 PM
'66

"discharging almost completely, and charging completely is the best darn thing you can do to them."

I had always thought this was the case and why chargers generally will discharge batteries first before charging again. But my brother-in-law (an EE type) told me that there is a point where batteries can be damaged by draining too low and that they should always be removed from the tool and charged immediately, or something along those lines.

Does anyone else have any opinions or info on this? It seems that either they have lost their capacity to hold a decent charge or they are not charging all the way. This is a 14.4 DeWalt and according to the charger (light steadily on) they are recharged very quickly (seems like 15 min to 1/2 hr) but do not last very long at all. Maybe 1 drilling through a double 2 x 4 with a 9/16 or 5/8 spade bit, that's it. Sometimes not even that. Any ideas? It's only 2 - 3 yrs old and has been doing it for awhile already.

Bill
Posted By: pauluk Re: Which BatterTools??? - 06/15/02 05:26 PM
There's been a debate about this sort of thing going on in the electronics world for years.

General consensus now seems to be that many deep-cycle NiCads do exhibit some sort of "memory effect," in that if you only ever run them part way down before recharging that they will start to lose capacity. The recommendations seem to concur that they should re run down to minimum charge once every so often to prevent this.

On the other hand, some battery compositions seem to suffer from being left in a fully discharged state for too long, rather like a standard lead-acid automotive battery. I can't lay my hands on the journals to get details of the different types, though.

Personally, I don't go much for cordless tools. I know it's a hassle to have to drag an extension cord everywhere, but you know the battery isn't going to give out on you.
Posted By: Fred Re: Which BatterTools??? - 06/15/02 09:31 PM
I had a Dewalt 14.4 recip saw for about 5 years and really had no complaints. I also had the 14.4 driver/drill and 1/2" hammer drill. The hammer drill didn't last too long and died in about a year and a half. I bought a Porter Cable 14.4 3/8" driver drill about 2 years ago and put it to use shooting tek screws in purlins every day hanging 1/2 and 3/4 EMT. I couldn't believe a battery could last all day(about 150-200 screws)but they did. I went on to buy the 14.4 drill with 1/2" chuck and another hammer drill version for setting tapcons. I love the Porter cable drills and after 2= years of daily use/abuse they still work like new. The batteries still last just as long and are all still good. I never got much more than a year and a half out of Dewalt 14.4s before they wouldn't hold a charge anymore. I did replace my 14.4 Dewalt recip saw with an 18V Dewalt this spring. I demo'd the Porter Cable 19V and the Millwaukee Hatchet but found them too heavy and unbalanced for one hand operation(like cutting PVC and EMT).
Put me down for Porter Cable driver/drills and Dewalt recip saws.
Posted By: motor-T Re: Which BatterTools??? - 06/16/02 12:41 AM
To All:
I now have almost exculsively Milwaukee, I really like them, but the one I like the most is the mil 14.4 with the heavy-duty battery and thats for a couple of reasons.
1. I have 4 batteries for it ( these were left behind by the theives who didnt take them but took the tools) that notwith standing when the Milwaukee 14.4 runs out of gas its, like now and you got to change it, and they take a 1/2 inch drill shank and will drill thru just about anything.
2. I had a DeWalt 18 volt hammar-drill/Drill and it worked fine and had no complaints except it was very awkward when it had to be used on a ladder, Its one super redeeming feature was when I put in a service on an all brick building with no power it drilled into the brick without a problem.
After it got stolen( I got hit three times) I never replaced it but tried the Bosch 18 volt and it was really powerful but very fragile, I dropped two from a 6-foot step and the collet broke off each one, the dealer replaced them each time but after the third time I went back to the Milwaukee.
As far as the batteries not holding a charge I have not yet had that problem, as I said i have 4 but hate the thought of shelling out 60 dollars for a new one,(the orange store sells them for 54.95 plus tax)but still alot of money for one battery. Just as a side note I still have three chargers(the Mil.Universal type) and i leave two in the case and two on the chargers amd carry the third charger in the case, Just in case.
But thats how I see it.
-Mark-
Posted By: sparky66wv Re: Which BatterTools??? - 06/16/02 01:30 AM
The way I understand it, charging NiCds (NiCad is a brand name) before they are almost completely discharged allows crystals to build up in the cells which is this "memory" problem. Chargers that pulse charge help to prevent this (I've been told that some pulse chargers will actually break up the crystals and restore old cells somewhat), and "smart" chargers, like Bill pointed out, that discharge to a preset point first are even better.

The danger of discharging too far is that the cell may reverse polarity. I have never seen this happen, and I have abused my share of NiCd packs!

I'm going to surf for a few articles by respected RC modelling mags to see if there are any tips out there...

BRB...



[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 06-15-2002).]
Posted By: sparky66wv Re: Which BatterTools??? - 06/16/02 01:38 AM
http://www.rcmodelers.com/INTRODUCT/introbat/introbat.html

Here's an intro...

I'll look for something a little more "techie"...

BRB...

... Hmmmm, no luck...

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 06-15-2002).]
Posted By: master66 Re: Which BatterTools??? - 06/16/02 02:11 AM
I've got the 18V DeWalt Hammer drill, Recip. saw and circular saw. Never tried the Milwaukee cordless tools.

I to have problems with short overall battery life. (probably two years) But the way I look at it, thats a lot of holes and screws.

One thing that I did a while ago to assure charged batteries when I need one was buy an inexpensive inverter ($25-$30) and plugged the DeWAlt charger in while I was driving.

On the way home and on the way to work I would charge batteries. Even between service calls.
Posted By: Electric Eagle Re: Which BatterTools??? - 06/16/02 03:45 AM
All our cordless tools are DeWalt 18volt. Absolutely no problems. I am always amazed at the large amount of work we can do between charges. I do know DeWalt has 2 lines, one is not as heavy duty and the batteries are light duty too. The new Dewalts have a battery charger with a renew cycle that completely discharges and recharges over an extended period (up to 8hrs). I've been considering getting 12 volt ones for light assembly work and trim outs.

Now for corded tools all our big drills are Milwaukee
Posted By: sparky66wv Re: Which BatterTools??? - 06/16/02 04:16 AM
Here's a pic of my Expanded Scale Voltmeter that I use with my planes. It tests under no load, under 200 mA and 500 mA. The expanded scale shows a range of 4.5VDC to 6.0VDC for 4 cell packs, 4.8 being the nominal. Green is good, yellow, maybe squeeze in a short flight (I never do!), red, you're dead (if you try to fly). BTW, this is one instance that analog meters are better... the *movement* of the needle while under load and rebound when the load is released is where most of the story is!

This is for Remote Control planes, not full scale.

[Linked Image from users.stargate.net]

Dead batteries + full tank of fuel = free flight airplane travelling 40 mph for twenty minutes! If it's trimmed out well, it could travel nearly 20 miles, assuming trimmed for 250 fpm climb under power and -250 fpm glide while out of fuel, it could be a lot greater than that say 25 miles with a L/D of 10:1 (Am I talking greek yet?)
25 miles is a lot of ground to cover to look for the $1000 crater, if it hasn't created a liability of even more by hitting something/someone.

That's why I'm anal about my NiCds!

[Linked Image]
</threadjack>

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 06-16-2002).]
Posted By: sparky66wv Re: Which BatterTools??? - 06/16/02 04:57 AM
As NiCds start to wear out, I've noticed that the packs will show full voltage at first, but as load is applied, the voltage will level off fairly low, and the rebound to peak voltage after the load is released is rather slow. New 1400mA packs will hardly notice a 500mA load when fully charged, and what little needle movement there is will snap back to peak immediately after the load is released.

Have I sorta tied things back together now?

[Linked Image]

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 06-16-2002).]
Posted By: BrianSparky Re: Which BatterTools??? - 06/16/02 02:44 PM
Milwaukee wins for me!
When I was in the market for a cordless hammer-drill/driver, I looked at both DeWalt and Milwaukee. One of the selling points on Milwaukee is that they use all metal gears where DeWalt has plastic.
I bought the Contractor bag with a 18v Hammer-drill/driver, sawzall with charger and bag. Later on I added the light. Just the other week I bought the new Milwaukee radio (great!).
True, the milwaukee drill is heavy, but the thing goes on almost all day, even on hammerdrill. I don't personally carry my drills in a holster anymore so the weight isn't as much of an issue. But overall, I'm very impressed with the quality and rugggedness of milwaukee, I won't buy anything else now.
Drill on!
Posted By: Bjarney Re: Which BatterTools??? - 06/16/02 04:56 PM
Bill A.—

There is some info on usenet. If you are serious about studying up on the matter, start by searching Google Groups for "sci.chem.electrochem Frequently Asked Questions" but—fair warning—you won't get 6-word answers to your questions.

You may want to also search “sci.chem.electrochem.battery”… {Caution—If the term ‘usenet’ has no meaning, you may be entering intense [and vast!] territory. It’s far older than the WWWeb stuff.} Good luck.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Which BatterTools??? - 06/16/02 11:37 PM
About a year ago there was an article in one of my home magazines about rechargeable batteries. Until I can locate it I will tell you the points I remember. All the tool companies recommended recharging Ni-Cads at the first sign of weakness. None suggested totally draining them and in fact the author stated that this could cause cell reversal in one or more cells and ruin the battery(which is exactly what I did to a Milwaukee 12 volt one week before I read the article. The author also explained that the batteries worst enemy is heat, heat while using, heat while charging and heat while storing. The higher voltage batteries will not last as long because of the additional heat they generate while in use. I keep my batteries in a small canvas work bag and take them out to the truck every morning and back in the house when I return where they are recharged whether they have been used or not.
As far as brand preference no opinion was given.
Posted By: Bill Addiss Re: Which BatterTools??? - 06/17/02 01:11 AM
Brian,

That sounds very much like what I was told. I know that I have had a tendancy to drain them as much as possible and I think I have probably ruined them. I would be interested in reading that article if you can locate it.

Bill
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