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to GFIor not to is the question #99021
07/10/06 09:55 PM
07/10/06 09:55 PM
watersparkfalls  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 222
Washington...Not DC
i always install GFI outlets for construction trades in the houses i wire.
but at the house across the street(snooping on my competition)they use regular outlets is this legal or should they be gfi?
i have heard that when permanant power is hooked up you dont need to be GFI protected but dont know if this is a wives tale.

thanks,
h20

2017 / 2014 NEC & Related Books and Study Guides
Re: to GFIor not to is the question #99022
07/10/06 10:03 PM
07/10/06 10:03 PM
B
bot540  Offline
Member
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 174
Vernon Hills, IL
Read 590.6. Thius answers your question yes. This is also required by OSHA.


Jesus may have been a capenter,but God was an electrician.Genesis1:3
Re: to GFIor not to is the question #99023
07/10/06 10:22 PM
07/10/06 10:22 PM
J
JoeTestingEngr  Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 799
Chicago, Il.
Is it possible that they installed a GFCB in the panel to feed the normal outlets that you saw?
Joe

Re: to GFIor not to is the question #99024
07/10/06 10:57 PM
07/10/06 10:57 PM
G
gfretwell  Offline

Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,306
Estero,Fl,usa
My wife's houses have the panel in the garage. They set the panel and put in the garage receptacle very early in the process, pretty much as soon as the roof is black and the trades run cords from there. That will be GFCI anyway.
Prior to that they either steal power from the house next door ... Hopefully not a closed house ;-)
Otherwise it is generators.


Greg Fretwell
Re: to GFIor not to is the question #99025
07/11/06 04:43 AM
07/11/06 04:43 AM
I
iwire  Offline
Moderator
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,391
North Attleboro, MA USA
Both the NEC and OSHA require GFCI protection for construction personal.

However each trade is responsible for their own actions.

If the carpenter plugs into a regular receptacle it will be a fine against that carpenters company.

OSHA rules put the burden on each sub contractor to provide their own GFCI protection. They can use GFCI cord sets.

The way we do it is this, at the beginning we provide GFCI protected temporary as per contract.

As the job wraps up we remove those and fire up some permanent circuits.

At the same time we post papers and send letters to the GC explaining and referencing the OSHA standards and that it will be up to each trade to protect themselves.

I can post some OSHA interpretations if anyone is interested.


Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts
Re: to GFIor not to is the question #99026
07/11/06 09:15 AM
07/11/06 09:15 AM
renosteinke  Offline
Cat Servant
Member
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,316
Blue Collar Country
I'm not so sure that a GFI is ALWAYS required for ALL construction.

Imagine this situation: The house is closed in, with a panel mounted in the mechanical room. A short piece of pipe exits the panel, to a stud-mounted box with an "industrial" or "exposed" type cover.
This install could very well be part of the permanent structure, and not temporary at all. The construction crews are simply using an existing receptacle.

As I see it, this install, in a place that might have exposed studs when finished, would beat the GFI requirement.

But- fine rules aside- I reccomend the use of a GFI. Heck, the additional cost is maybe $10. When you consider all the faulting pipe threaders, saws-it-alls, scissor lifts, etc., that I've discovered with a GFI, it's a smart move.

Re: to GFIor not to is the question #99027
07/11/06 07:11 PM
07/11/06 07:11 PM
I
iwire  Offline
Moderator
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,391
North Attleboro, MA USA
John

Quote
Imagine this situation: The house is closed in, with a panel mounted in the mechanical room. A short piece of pipe exits the panel, to a stud-mounted box with an "industrial" or "exposed" type cover.
This install could very well be part of the permanent structure, and not temporary at all. The construction crews are simply using an existing receptacle.


That can happen and does happen.

However each contractor plugging into that outlet is required by OSHA to have GFCI protection. The use a GFCI cord set is a work around.

If caught breaking this rule the fine will be against the offending persons employer.

It will not (or should not ) be against the EC for installing an outlet that is part of the permanent wiring.


BTW that rule applies to us ECs as well, if we plug an extension cord into that non GFCI outlet we have to use a GFCI cord set.

Bob


[This message has been edited by iwire (edited 07-11-2006).]


Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts
Re: to GFIor not to is the question #99028
07/12/06 10:14 AM
07/12/06 10:14 AM
E
earlydean  Offline
Member
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 751
Griswold, CT, USA
Section 590.6(A) has all the details. The 2005 NEC also requires this protection.


Earl
Re: to GFIor not to is the question #99029
07/12/06 12:40 PM
07/12/06 12:40 PM
G
gfretwell  Offline

Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,306
Estero,Fl,usa
490 really refers to temporary installations I think Reno might be referring to permanent building wiring that gets used in later stages of construction. How about the carpet installer who plugs his seaming iron into a general lighting receptacle? I have never seen them use a GFCI adapter.


Greg Fretwell
Re: to GFIor not to is the question #99030
07/12/06 06:43 PM
07/12/06 06:43 PM
I
iwire  Offline
Moderator
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,391
North Attleboro, MA USA
Quote
How about the carpet installer who plugs his seaming iron into a general lighting receptacle? I have never seen them use a GFCI adapter.


IMO OSHA requires them have GFCI protection.

That said OSHA standards are generally ignored by small contractors and if it it is a one person owner operator shop OSHA does not apply`


Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts
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