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Non-grounding receptical replacement #98277
05/21/06 03:44 PM
05/21/06 03:44 PM
E
e57  Offline OP
Member
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,876
S.F.,CA USA
As some may know, I'm writing a lesson on K&T wiring, because I am sick of explaining it....

Anyway, in the course of doing so I came upon a code that I have debated to my advantage a few times, and lost a few times... (interpritation/general additude of AHJ wise)

Posting to get some feed-back from what I often refer to as "The Wider Electrical World", you guys.....

Code in question is:

Quote
406.3 D(3)(c) A nongrounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted to be replaced with a grounding-type receptacle(s) where supplied through a ground-fault circuit interrupter. Grounding-type receptacles supplied through the ground-fault circuit interrupter shall be marked “GFCI Protected” and “No Equipment Ground.” An equipment grounding conductor shall not be connected between the grounding-type receptacles.


For instance you have a customer who wants to have non-grounded, K&T fed devices match the rest of thier whimical design of having hot pink decora duplex recepticals...

Could you not take the entire 2-wire circuit and put it on a a GFCI breaker, or even a AFCI breaker with class A GFI protection? Provided you marked every outlet with “GFCI Protected” and “No Equipment Ground.”


Mark Heller
"Well - I oughta....." -Jackie Gleason
2017 / 2014 NEC & Related Books and Study Guides
Re: Non-grounding receptical replacement #98278
05/21/06 04:35 PM
05/21/06 04:35 PM
I
iwire  Offline
Moderator
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,391
North Attleboro, MA USA
IMO yes you could.

That however will not allow the homeowner to use equipment that needs grounding without a 250.114 violation.

Bob


Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts
Re: Non-grounding receptical replacement #98279
05/21/06 05:54 PM
05/21/06 05:54 PM
A
Alan Nadon  Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 399
Elkhart, IN. USA
Iwire nailed it.
A big however, make very certain that the owner knows that computers and their surge protectors will NOT be safe on an ungrounded circuit.
I see this on rewires all the time and advise the electrician to sell up the job with a dedicated circuit for the home computer and entertainment areas.
Alan--


Alan--
If it was easy, anyone could do it.
Re: Non-grounding receptical replacement #98280
05/21/06 06:08 PM
05/21/06 06:08 PM
E
e57  Offline OP
Member
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,876
S.F.,CA USA
Bob, Alan, VERY good points indeed....

Quote
(3) In residential occupancies:
a. Refrigerators, freezers, and air conditioners
b. Clothes-washing, clothes-drying, dish-washing machines; kitchen waste disposers; information technology equipment; sump pumps and electrical aquarium equipment
c. Hand-held motor-operated tools, stationary and fixed motor-operated tools, light industrial motor-operated tools
d. Motor-operated appliances of the following types: hedge clippers, lawn mowers, snow blowers, and wet scrubbers
e. Portable handlamps


In my little (now 14 page doc) I suggest areas in which items like that would be used AND "home offices" not have K&T to remain anyway, but will add refferance to these concerns....


Mark Heller
"Well - I oughta....." -Jackie Gleason
Re: Non-grounding receptical replacement #98281
05/21/06 07:08 PM
05/21/06 07:08 PM
G
George Little  Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,489
Michigan USA
It is my undersanding that if a jurisdiction is under the IRC you can not substitute GFCI protection for grounding. If you are to replace a 2 wire receptacle with a receptacle that has is 2 wire with ground you must install an EGC back to the panel.


George Little
Re: Non-grounding receptical replacement #98282
05/22/06 04:23 PM
05/22/06 04:23 PM
G
George Little  Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,489
Michigan USA
I copied this information out of the IRC - I didn't have it available when I posted the prior comment.
Quote
3. For replacement of nongrounding-type receptacles with grounding-type receptacles and for branch circuits that do not have an equipment grounding conductor in the branch circuitry, the grounding conductor of a grounding type receptacle outlet shall be permitted to be grounded to any accessible point on the grounding electrode system, or to any accessible point on the grounding electrode conductor, as allowed and described in Chapters 33 through 42.


[This message has been edited by George Little (edited 05-22-2006).]


George Little
Re: Non-grounding receptical replacement #98283
05/22/06 04:47 PM
05/22/06 04:47 PM
G
gfretwell  Offline

Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,222
Estero,Fl,usa
Is there any language about how the grounding conductor is run?


Greg Fretwell
Re: Non-grounding receptical replacement #98284
05/22/06 09:20 PM
05/22/06 09:20 PM
G
George Little  Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,489
Michigan USA
There aren't any specific instructions in the IRC for running this grounding conductor other than running it in a raceway or cable that I can find. I looked in the '02 NEC and there aren't any guidelines in there either. I seem to remember wording about running a single conductor (not in a racewaay or cable) to the water service or panel as long as it was physically protected. Maybe it's gone now.

The point I was trying to make was that the NEC allows the use of GFCI protection in lieu of grounding in some cases but the IRC doesn't allow this approach.

[This message has been edited by George Little (edited 05-22-2006).]


George Little
Re: Non-grounding receptical replacement #98285
05/22/06 09:27 PM
05/22/06 09:27 PM
E
e57  Offline OP
Member
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,876
S.F.,CA USA
It seems the IRC is simular to the former interpetations of the NEC, in 406.3 D(1), you are reffered to 250.130(C), and you would find....
Quote
(1) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode system as described in 250.50

Which was fine untill the code changed in '93 to no more than 5' from entrance of building.....

And this interpetation resulted...
"Because of the requirements of 250.52(A)(1), an interior metal water pipe more than 5 ft from the point of entrance of the water pipe into the building is no longer allowed to serve as a connection to the grounding electrode conductor."

So back in the day it was easy, just ground to any portion of the cold water... DONE!

But what does it say in these sections?
"as allowed and described in Chapters 33 through 42."

The two codes may revert to apple / apple again.


Mark Heller
"Well - I oughta....." -Jackie Gleason
Re: Non-grounding receptical replacement #98286
05/23/06 08:47 AM
05/23/06 08:47 AM
G
George Little  Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,489
Michigan USA
I think Greg's question had to do with how you physically connected the EGC to the Grounding Electrode System and I did find what I was looking for in the NEC at 250.120(C). If I'm reading it correctly you could run an open wire sized smaller than #6 to the Grounding Electrode System etc and not have it in a raceway or cable as long as it was physically protected. You could run a #14 bare or green from the receptacle you would be installing, to the water service (within 5 feet) or to the panel. It would not have to be in a raceway. Does everyone agree? [Linked Image]


George Little
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