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#97340 - 02/17/06 11:32 PM Pool wiring  
aldav53  Offline
Member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 545
Chandler, AZ USA
Can you run PVC for residential pool wiring for the pump motor and Pool light? I have always seen wrapped ridgid, unless you can convert to PVC once deep enough.
Also, why do they always use copper pipe to run to the pool light itself


The Golden Rule - "The man with the gold makes the rule"

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#97341 - 02/18/06 01:09 AM Re: Pool wiring  
bot540  Offline
Member
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 174
Vernon Hills, IL
Motor,Yes 680.21(A)(1) The branch circuits for pool associated motors can be installed in rmc,imc,rnc,or type mc, ect.
Lights,
Lights, "why do they always use copper?"
680.23(B)(2) Conduit shall be rigid metal,itermediate metal, liquid tight flexible nonmetallic, or rigid nonmetallic
(a) Metal Conduit. Metal shall be approved and shall be of brass or other approved corrosion-resistant metal
I suggest you read these articles as they are abreviated.


Jesus may have been a capenter,but God was an electrician.Genesis1:3

#97342 - 02/18/06 12:39 PM Re: Pool wiring  
gfretwell  Offline


Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,103
Estero,Fl,usa
I haven't seen a pool wired in metal in 20 years. PVC with the 8ga ground wire seems to be the standard pool light setup. Be sure you "pot" the connection in the forming shell with a listed "goo" kit. That really just goes to the metal ring/shell on the light, since everything else is probably plastic too. The EGC is in the cord. It all gets bonded together in the listed J box, from there 8ga to the rest of the grid.


Greg Fretwell

#97343 - 02/18/06 12:54 PM Re: Pool wiring  
George Little  Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,489
Michigan USA
I agree Greg- I had one guy about 2 years ago install K Copper from the niche to the deck box and he was asked to change it.

I wish the code panel would decide what that #8 wire should be called. The've waffled back and forth between grounding and bonding over the last coupla cycles. I see in the '05 it's back to being a bonding conductor.

For the interest of those who don't routinely wire pools, the raceway from the niche to the deck box on an in ground pool, is the raceway that needs to be brass or PVC. Once your past the deck box you can run regular RMC or PVC underground.

I have yet to see a job where they use brass. Must be a cost factor.


George Little

#97344 - 02/18/06 12:58 PM Re: Pool wiring  
aldav53  Offline
Member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 545
Chandler, AZ USA
Doesn't the 8 gauge bond wire have to be continuous from the panel to the pump motor and bonded to the brass pipe going to the pool light? Or can you just run the bond wire from the brass pipe to the pump motor. Considering there is a ground already run with the pump motor circuit, (plus the 15a pool light GFI circuit, which is separate of course).
On this job they are just moving the pool equipment to another location. So I'll probably dig up the brass pipe (for the light) and bend it over to the other spot. Then just rerun a new line to the pump motor and pool light circuit. They may be adding a heat pump for the spa which next to the pool, which I could run in the same pipe.


The Golden Rule - "The man with the gold makes the rule"

#97345 - 02/18/06 01:13 PM Re: Pool wiring  
aldav53  Offline
Member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 545
Chandler, AZ USA
One other question is, I have to run from the panel then along the outside wall, then down to underground, then to the pool equipment.
In the past I've usually run EMT along a wall, then convert to wrapped ridgid to enter underground, then when deep enough convert to PVC.
I had an inspecter once say I could run PVC along a outside wall. So what if I just run EMT along the wall (would rather use EMT there), then convert to PVC when entering the ground, (not use the ridgid), and come up at the other end with PVC to the pool pump motor timer and light circuit. This would be code, correct?


The Golden Rule - "The man with the gold makes the rule"

#97346 - 02/18/06 02:14 PM Re: Pool wiring  
gfretwell  Offline


Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,103
Estero,Fl,usa
As long as your EMT is properly bonded at the line end your plan is fine "where installed on buildings" 680.21(A)(2).
Your first question gets into the difference between the grounding and bonding conductors George was talking about. The 8ga is the equipotential 680.26 BONDING grid and that is not required to be connected to the ground bus in the panel. 680.26(A)FPN
The objective is simply to bond all of the metal that touches the water, and out from the deck 3' (2005) in a solidly connected grid. Those 8 ga wires can have "Connection shall be made by exothermic welding or by pressure connectors or clamps that are labeled as being suitable for the purpose and are of stainless steel, brass, copper, or copper alloy." 680.26(C)
The conductor that must be made without joint or splice, is from the panel to the listed underwarer water "J" box (aka deck box, although they will be out in the yard, as often as not. The excewption to the "without joint or splice" is a busbar in the timer or listed switch enclosure. 680.23(F)(2)ex.
This is going to be a 12ga or larger insulated wire.
The pump also requires a 12ga or larger insulated equipment grounding conductor but the code is silent about splices. Some inspectors still like to see it unspliced. YMMV.

The whole issue about whether this is grounding or bonding and in fact whether the pool becomes a grounding electrode will usually start a fight in an inspector meeting. The fact still remains that the 680.23 "bonding" grid is electrically connected to the required "grounding" conductors at the pump, the light, the heater and the underwater speakers so the electrons will go where the EMF drives them.
I decided in my pool to just bond the spa grid, pool grid and panel GEC bus to a common copper bus with a #8 and stop making the distinction. I am grounded/bonded six ways from sunday. I am hoping, when the lightning hits, all of that juice finds it's way to ground as fast as possible.


Greg Fretwell

#97347 - 02/18/06 03:23 PM Re: Pool wiring  
aldav53  Offline
Member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 545
Chandler, AZ USA
gfretwell,
By bonding grid , you mean the rebar the pool is lined with, right? I would think the copper or brass pipe for the light would be bonded to that too.
As far as the motor bonding, I could just run the #12 from the motor housing to the motor timer, (which would have a continuous ground in it from the panel, plus the ground in the liquidtite to power up the motor). As an extra I could bond the brass pipe too, even though it is already grounded.

(Ridgid pipe - Don't know about you guys but I have seen so many WRAPPED ridgid pipes rusted out and would rather use PVC underground. They make the schedule 80 which is even thicker than the 40).
Do you agree that PVC is legal to run above the ground? It does say sunlight resistence on the PVC.
Hope all this makes sense,

Thanks for your help.


The Golden Rule - "The man with the gold makes the rule"

#97348 - 02/18/06 05:34 PM Re: Pool wiring  
harold endean  Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,233
Boonton, NJ
I have been doing electrical work for about 25 years now and I have only seen brass pipe to the wet niche light fixture once or twice. I am not sure if you can even get it anymore.


#97349 - 02/18/06 06:15 PM Re: Pool wiring  
aldav53  Offline
Member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 545
Chandler, AZ USA
Maybe its different here in AZ because thats all I've seen, the brass/copper (whichever one it is) to the pool light.
I've got about 25 years too. The time sure went quick, didn't it? :-)


The Golden Rule - "The man with the gold makes the rule"

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