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#97161 - 01/29/06 12:37 AM Fun with "green' GEC  
gfretwell  Offline


Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,123
Estero,Fl,usa
I spent the day with Mark Ode (along with 170 other guys). I caught him on a break, mostly asking about the turned up rebar Ufer deal. (He was OK with it)
Then I got him with the "can a GEC be green"?
He said of course it can. I said prove it.
He was still thumbing the book an the next break. I bet he will remember me ;-)


Greg Fretwell

2017 / 2014 NEC & Related Books and Study Guides

#97162 - 01/29/06 09:19 AM Re: Fun with "green' GEC  
George Little  Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,489
Michigan USA
Greg- I don't find where the color is called out for the GEC but if I were asked by a contractor what color for the GEC my answer would probably be "bare or green". I would be hard pressed to write a violation for them using a red or orange wire. Since it is a grounding wire albeit a GEC it seems practical to use green or bare. Most electricians and other electrically inclined persons recognize green as a grounding conductor. Notice I said "most" [Linked Image]


George Little

#97163 - 01/29/06 12:46 PM Re: Fun with "green' GEC  
Alan Nadon  Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 399
Elkhart, IN. USA
Any color or bare is allowed.
I made a proposal to the Code that at least in panels and switchboards it had to be identified with green or bare.
Rejected.
Seeing a black or red wire on a ground / neutral bar makes most electricians pause.
Oh well.

We plan on tackeling the rebar question next week. Any helpful information ?
Alan--


Alan--
If it was easy, anyone could do it.

#97164 - 01/29/06 01:15 PM Re: Fun with "green' GEC  
winnie  Offline
Member
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 649
boston, ma
Start with 310.12
310.12(B) directs us to 250.119 for _equipment grounding conductors_. 250.119 repeats: 'Identification of Equipment Grounding Conductors'
The definition section distinguishes between Grounding Conductors and Grounding Conductors, Equipment. So 250.119 clearly does not apply to grounding conductors in general, but only to the specific subclass of _Equipment_ grounding conductors.

310.12(A) directs us to 200.6 for _grounded conductors_.
200.6 essentially specifies the use of white or grey for grounded conductors, possibly by marking for sizes larger than 6AWG
The definition section says that a grounded conductor is 'A system or circuit conductor that is intentionally grounded.'

The GEC is not an EGC. The GEC is not a circuit conductor. But the GEC is a conductor, and part of the electrical system. Therefor the GEC is a grounded conductor and thus governed by 200.6, and must be bare have a _white_ (or one of the other 200.6 variations) covering.

*grin*

-Jon

[This message has been edited by winnie (edited 01-29-2006).]


#97165 - 01/29/06 02:21 PM Re: Fun with "green' GEC  
Redsy  Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,056
Bucks County PA
Nice "code loop", and interesting interpretation, Jon.
I would equate "grounded" conductors with neutrals, and/or grounded phase conductors which are intended to carry current(if need be)under normal operating conditions.
I never considered the GEC as a "grounded conductor" although it is a conductor and it is grounded.
BTW,
I usually use stranded black.


#97166 - 01/29/06 02:44 PM Re: Fun with "green' GEC  
winnie  Offline
Member
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 649
boston, ma
Redsy,

I quite agree with you. I have always understood 'grounded conductor' to mean a conductor that is _intended_ to carry current, as opposed to the 'grounding conductors' which should _not_ carry current in a properly functioning system. The above interpretation is what I get when I read the literal wording in the code.

This does lead to a logical conflict, since an equipment grounding conductor is also a 'grounded conductor', and therefore required to be white and green at the same time.

How about another funny: if you don't buy that the GEC is a grounded conductor, and by definition the GEC is also not an EGC, then you get to 'the GEC may be any color'. However, based upon 310.12(C) if you use a particular color for the GEC, then you can't use that color for an ungrounded conductor. So your use of the black covering for a GEC means you can't use it as a phase conductor [Linked Image]

-Jon


#97167 - 01/29/06 04:31 PM Re: Fun with "green' GEC  
Redsy  Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,056
Bucks County PA
Jon,
I have always rested on Article 200, which although titled "Use and Identification of Grounded Conductors", does not address conductors used for grounding purposes, and therefore would not consider conductors used for connecting Grounded Conductors to ground as grounded conductors, although these indeed are conductors which are connected to ground.

If you followed that, try this...

I can not consider that which is, without considering that by which, which is, is!

As far as 310.12(C), (grounded AND grounding conductors)good call!


#97168 - 01/29/06 04:40 PM Re: Fun with "green' GEC  
George Little  Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,489
Michigan USA
Looks like we're back to green or bare for the GEC??

So if we have a bare Grounded or Ungrounded conductor we are stuck with Green for our GEC???

[This message has been edited by George Little (edited 01-29-2006).]


George Little

#97169 - 01/29/06 06:28 PM Re: Fun with "green' GEC  
Redsy  Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,056
Bucks County PA
George, If we have bare Ungrounded, we are "stuck" alright.

But you knew that. [Linked Image]


#97170 - 01/30/06 01:56 AM Re: Fun with "green' GEC  
gfretwell  Offline


Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,123
Estero,Fl,usa
If I follow the code loop I end up with white or bare as logical choices. When you hang your amp probe on a GEC it will usually be carrying some of the unbalanced load.
It can be seen as an extension of the grounded conductor from the utility in a ring circuit that ends up being a parallel path back to the X0 via the earth or the water system.
It is hard to get over the idea that "grounding" conductors are not green but this is really a "grounded" conductor.


Greg Fretwell

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