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Romex inside Carflex... #94579
08/02/05 09:14 PM
08/02/05 09:14 PM
foestauf  Offline OP
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 49
Ok scenario. Outside A/C whip stubs outside of wall.
For speed, ease, and less cost we do the ugly but it works carflex overtop the romex and straight into the wall into the disconnect. We had been doing this very commonly, it was SOP for my company. To give you scope we do 5 counties, 130 electrical employes (Not including wharehouse, office etc...) and perform work for several different large builders...

Well one day here I am in local Osceola county, FL and this dink inspector (Not because he is an inspector, because he is a dink) tells me that I can't do that because Romex isn't rated to be outside... WELL it's protected by Carflex!!!
Can't tell me Romex isn't rated for use in Carflex look at the disposal.
Romex inside carflex is ok for the disposal, is under the sink considered a damp enviroment or because of the possibility of a leak a wet enviroment?

This has frusted the crap out of me requiring us to bellbox right ontop of the whip then THHN rest of the way.
Then again this guy also failed us because we didn't have our stupid sticker on the panel that says "Joes Electric/ (555) 555-1234".

Any idea is this just a mis-interupitation of the code or is every other inspector we've every ran into just overlooking it?
Heck one inspector was so strict he required me and my helper to be present any time we worked live or inside a main panel.

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Re: Romex inside Carflex... #94580
08/02/05 09:35 PM
08/02/05 09:35 PM
HotLine1  Offline

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 7,094
Brick, NJ USA
A little respect may be in order, but beside that what it sounds like you are describing is considered a damp/wet location. Any conduit outside can 'contain' condensation. NMC is a 'no-no'. Under the sink.....well under normal circumstances that is a 'dry' location.

As to having a helper 'around' when working "hot"; he may be saving someone from injury, death, or possibly an OSHA ticket.


Re: Romex inside Carflex... #94581
08/02/05 09:50 PM
08/02/05 09:50 PM
winnie  Offline
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 649
boston, ma
By many interpretations, NM was not permitted in conduit in the 2002 code cycle, but because of a wording error, not because it was intended to be prohibited. It was previously permitted, and is permitted in the 2005 code cycle. So _in general_ you can run NM in conduit.

However, as HotLine1 notes, a conduit _outside_ is considered a _wet_ location. NM is not allowed in _wet_ locations.

One solution to your installation technique is to use _UF_ for the entire run from panel, through the carflex, to the disconnect. UF is rated for wet locations, and may also be used in place of NM.


Re: Romex inside Carflex... #94582
08/03/05 03:17 AM
08/03/05 03:17 AM
watersparkfalls  Offline
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 233
Washington...Not DC
"Ok scenario. Outside A/C whip stubs outside of wall.
For speed, ease, and less cost we do the ugly but it works carflex overtop the romex and straight into the wall into the disconnect. We had been doing this very commonly, it was SOP for my company."

i am a little confused here????
you are leaving a 3'tail of nm say its
10-2 on your rough in. so when you come back on the "trim,final,device,plug and switch," yadda yadda what ever you call it. you slap some carflex(liquid tight)over it run it outside the house into a 3R knife disconnect and then whip it into the ac? what would be the speed/savings in your company sop. seems like if you wanted speed you would just have some of the shopies make pre-whips say lengths of 3'-5' dunno been awhile since iv done an ac just remember the good old days back in mini-sota ya know. and we used to leave tails 18" or so and set the disconnect over the wire using the back knock out and then whip into the unit using thhn.
what about a wp outlet within sight of the ac do you have one? most inspectors around here dont make you put one there since the units are mostly on the side of the house and you have a recep. front and back already....but if a guy was truly a "dink" he could write a correction for that too.

how about the low volt did you pull that?
and is the bell wire uv rated? listed? marked as such?
cause if he only didnt like rope in the carflex doesnt sound like a dink...just old school.

in my opinion,

whats this all about?
Then again this guy also failed us because we didn't have our stupid sticker on the panel that says "Joes Electric/ (555) 555-1234".

show me that in the nec.

and as to working hot with a helper sure sounds nice but if less then 480/277 volts not really considered dangerous...since we are electricians and take every precaution not to ground ourselves while working hot(gloves,hot blankets,good insulated tools,ect).

like i tell my guys, be the bird on the wire NOT the squirell on the pole....fried crispy style.

Re: Romex inside Carflex... #94583
08/03/05 06:06 AM
08/03/05 06:06 AM
Electricmanscott  Offline
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,457
Holden, MA USA
No romex in wet locations. Inspector is correct. Under the sink is not wet location.

Re: Romex inside Carflex... #94584
08/03/05 06:55 AM
08/03/05 06:55 AM
Dnkldorf  Offline
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,064
nowhere usa
Hey, what's with that dink comment......


Re: Romex inside Carflex... #94585
08/03/05 11:35 AM
08/03/05 11:35 AM
foestauf  Offline OP
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 49
The speed and savings is doing that appose to bell boxing then going from bellbox to disconnect then to A/C unit.

Yes a WP within 25ft of A/C is standard and pretty well enforced around here.

There is more to then just that about the guy why I think he is a PITA. He would fail us because of the sticker thing which I harped about trying ot say the same thing "Show me in the damn NEC".
He would fail us if we walked with him and he found one GFI protected outlet did not have the GFCI sticker on it, but we put the sticker on it while we walked with him.
Said he didn't care, he didn't have the sticker and it wasn't on there when he walked in so he would stop and just fail. Would make us recall the inspection in because of a sticker.

I always knew that NM isn't rated for use in conduit but we go back to the disposal, we always use NM inside Carflex for that they never say anything.

So if it's called liquid-tight ie. Carflex, how can they say the wire is not protected from liquid while inside of it heh.

Yes, we try to just put the disconnect directly onto the stub-out, however my company loves to stub the wire out right behind the A/C pad.

As for low-volt we don't use bell wire, we run CAT V for everything, chime, garage door, phones...

BTW: I'll never respect that one inspector (Only one I don't like) because he is a framing inspector who reads the book and makes judgement on that, never ever done electrical a day in his life.

[This message has been edited by foestauf (edited 08-03-2005).]

Re: Romex inside Carflex... #94586
08/03/05 02:34 PM
08/03/05 02:34 PM
Tiger  Offline
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 706
Crystal Lake, IL USA
You may not like the inspectors mannerism, but he's right. He could say the LFNC is not permitted under 356.12(1) Where subject to physical damage. It could be interpreted as a need to run RMC within 6" of the unit, then LFNC for flexibility.

As to the label on the panel, maybe the building department wants to be sure that the EC on the permit actually did the job. Ask your boss how he feels about those panel stickers. He might like them for low-cost advertising/marketing.

I'll take a picky inspector over a clueless one anyday.


Re: Romex inside Carflex... #94587
08/03/05 07:51 PM
08/03/05 07:51 PM
ShockMe77  Offline
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 821
Rahway, New Jersey
What's the purpose of sleeving NM in Caroflex for a a garbage disposal? To me, that's a waste of money and time. Straight-up romex done neatly is the way to go, neat being the keyword here.

Re: Romex inside Carflex... #94588
08/04/05 12:25 AM
08/04/05 12:25 AM
gfretwell  Offline

Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,373
Most inspectors I know would say Romex must closely follow building finish and be strapped within 12" of the terminating connector. It would be hard to say you did that with an appliance whip.

Actually most disposals and dishwashers I see are cord and plug. I think that is a better system anyway. You don't want Bubba the appliance truck driver/"professional installer" in the building wiring when the original one breaks.

Greg Fretwell
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