ECN Electrical Forum - Discussion Forums for Electricians, Inspectors and Related Professionals
ECN Shout Chat
Recent Posts
It's been an interesting career
by Marienauripod - 05/23/22 12:21 AM
Run Cap subsitution question. Two vs. one
by LarryC - 05/20/22 09:01 PM
Material shortages???
by NORCAL - 05/02/22 04:12 PM
New in the Gallery:
240/208 to a house
240/208 to a house
by wa2ise, October 9
Now you know.
Now you know.
by Tom_Horne, September 7
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 43 guests, and 11 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,876
e57 Offline OP
Take a look at the following mounting examples of recessed low volt lighting.

411.4 Locations Not Permitted.
Lighting systems operating at 30 volts or less shall not be installed (1) where concealed or extended through a building wall, unless using a wiring method specified in Chapter 3, .....
The installation requirements of 411.4 recognize that shock and fire hazards still exist, even with low-voltage systems.

How would you do this in a chapter 3 wiring method in a type 1 TOC? Conduit, MC, Flex...
Where would the connections be made?
Would chopping off the little connectors that on them invalidate it's listing? (UL 153)
Would any splices you made be required to be in a box?

[This message has been edited by e57 (edited 07-01-2005).]

Mark Heller
"Well - I oughta....." -Jackie Gleason
Stay up to Code with the Latest NEC:

2020 NEC & Related Reference & Study Guides
2020 NEC & Related Reference & Study Guides
Pass Your Exam the FIRST TIME with these Exam Prep Combos:

>> Master Electrician Exam Prep     >> JourneyMan Electrician Exam Prep

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 558
I don’t think the installation shown violates 411.4 since the wiring is not run inside the building walls. I don’t consider the back of the cabinet part of the building. Unfortunately this type of installation would only work with Euro style of cabinets since most American built cabinets don’t have dead space behind the back. I’m not sure about voiding the UL listing if the connectors are cut off. I believe the transformers provided are class 2 supplies so I don’t know any requirements that would require boxes at connection points.

For what its worth I have installed many Hera pucks and have never had a problem. They are pricey but are good quality. I think the reason many don’t like pucks is that the pucks they have used are garbage.


[This message has been edited by caselec (edited 07-01-2005).]

Curt Swartz
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 209
I think the drawing is for "new install" of cabinets. It shows adding a firring strip to the top and bottom of the wall cabinets. The optional install in existing cabinets shows the cabinet body and shelves being drilled to accept the wiring. Either way, it is not inside the wall.

Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 625
While that's not "extended through a building wall," it's most certainly "where concealed."

I think something like the Kichler Series II xenon lights with built-in electronic transformers, hardwired with MC, is a much cleaner-looking and safer installation.

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,876
e57 Offline OP
Thats it... Solar you hit the nail on the head, it's "concealed". However SF Inspectors are absolutely neurotic about LV lighting. I think it was due to the huge swell of them during the dot com days here. Many were poorly made, and poorly installed. I feel for them, I really do. As I get to see, and pull out some of the things they missed over the years.

*Lamp cord stripped of the plug, and stuffed in a J-box with a romex connector. Making use of Zip Cord as perminent wiring.

*Inaccessable slpices with "landscraping" style Malibu wiring.

*Unprotected secondarys on buck and boost style transformers.

*Due to the high heat nature of the fixtures, scorched cabinetry, and short lived self destruction of the fixtures themselves. And the fires they have had when these are installed INSIDE cabinets, or in front of them where a door can be left open under one. I believe some one sued the city of an inspected job that caught fire years ago.

*Then there are cabinet makers who prefer to install themselves, and bury the whole mess, including the receptical they are fed from in a soffit, accessable only by removing finish nails and biscuits.

I swear I cringe everytime I hear the words "Puck Lights", or "Chase". Like in this answer after I ask, "What are these lights here on the plans? I dont have them in our bid." A-"Oh those are puck lights, the cabinet maker is going to put those in chase above the cabinets and you just give him a switched outlet above the uppers... And then he's going to cover it with crown moulding." Thats where I get told by the boss to fullfill my role as Field Supervisor and play "Bad Cop", and have to write up a laundry list of the possible code violations, and hassle we could get nailed with at the final of the job. I then get labled by the GC, and Designer as the "Electrial A-hole".

Which goes a little like this...

All fixtures must have documentation that they are listed to be recessed or mounted on wood or combustible material, and / or be thermally protected.

All concealed wiring must be in NEC Chapter 3 wiring methods suitable for this building type (Type 1), in this case Conduit, MC, or Flex.

All receptacles, transformers, connections and slices must remain accessible without the use of tools that will disturb, or require the removal of finish materials. Preferably in an access panel, or junction box.

All fixtures and transformers must be from the same manufacturer and be components of the same listing for use with each other.

All transformers must be clearly marked and have documentation on site at electrical final that they have short-circuit, and over-load protection. If on dimmers, they must be marked "Dimmable".

We must make it clear that many Electrical Inspectors in this area will be highly critical of this particular type of lighting, as many see it as a violation of the listing on many of these products to be installed in a permanent manner. (UL 153 Portable Cabinet Luminaires)

Yeah, pretty harsh for something we're not even installing.

[This message has been edited by e57 (edited 07-03-2005).]

Mark Heller
"Well - I oughta....." -Jackie Gleason
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,876
e57 Offline OP
More about the listing...

Well I tried to link to it...

[This message has been edited by e57 (edited 07-03-2005).]

Mark Heller
"Well - I oughta....." -Jackie Gleason
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 12
Always refer to the installation instructions and markings on the product to identify what installations and applications for which the light was Listed. The instructions will identify if the light was intended for use in an open or closed cabinet and proper spacing of the lights and installation into or under shelves. With out the installation instructions compliance with NEC Section 110.3(B) cannot be determined. These products are not intended for installation in recessed walls or ceilings, or in permanently installed cabinets where the wiring is concealed or passed through openings in the structure. Portable cabinet luminaires have been evaluated for mounting in accordance with the clearances marked on the product.

I,m assuming Portable cabinet luminaires meaning puck lights. I search UL site for puck and found meeting document in 2003.

So if a cabinet maker supplies the puck lights with no installation instuctions you can't verify the proper installation of product. Permantly installed cabinets would include kitchen cabinets screwed to walls. They say not to be used in recess walls, ceilings, and permanent cabinets running through walls. Limiting the use of light supplied zip cord. No fishing.
I would worry about false UL labels and instructions supplied by product makers. Plus if you want to play bad cop just ask for installation instructions.
I documented, signed by homeowner, that I only supplied uppercabinet receptacle to switch. Knowing, because they told me, how they where going to BUTCHER the cabinets for puck lights. I didn't want anything to do with that installation.
There is alot of heat generated with these lights and mixing with wood would be a hazard.

Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 625
You guys got me to thinking here, and I just thought of a really clean way to install hardwired U/C lights:

Use plain-vanilla Wiremold. Connect to the 1/2" knockouts using Wiremold's B8I transition fittings. You end up with an installation that's much neater-looking (IMHO) than MC or NM.

Edited to add: I'm referring here to the portion that's underneath the cabinets, not wiring that's behind cabinets or inside walls. For that, use whatever your favorite method is, and either run it to the first light, or transition to Wiremold when you come out of the wall. Then run Wiremold between all the lights in a run.

[This message has been edited by SolarPowered (edited 07-03-2005).]

Link Copied to Clipboard

Tools for Electricians
Tools for Electricians

* * * * * * *

2020 Master Electrician Exam Preparation Combos
2020 NEC Electrician
Exam Prep Combos:
Master / Journeyman


Member Spotlight
Levittown, PA
Posts: 811
Joined: April 2004
Top Posters(30 Days)
LarryC 3
Popular Topics(Views)
291,336 Are you busy
223,828 Re: Forum
209,228 Need opinion
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5