ECN Forum Forums Code Related Discussion NEC & other Code issues Interesting Observation

Okay- I'm not saying all these comments are accurate (including mine) but it does show me that there is confusion in the code. I look at 210.8 and this covers GFCI protection of "Outlets". The code in every case says the receptacles in such and such area must have GFCI protection. I wish the code would say all outlets in bedrooms must have AFCI protection. Then I would be able to understand it clearer. Since the code is primarily written for new installations, instead of existing installations and we are not installing a new branch circuit that would have to comply with 210.12, there is reason to believe that we could extend an existing circuit and forgo converting this circuit to an AFCI protected circuit.

Hi,

GEO YOU SAID: "I can accept the fact that adding an outlet to an existing circuit will not necessarily trigger changing to AFCI protection of the existing circuit"...WRONG!

I beleive the code is VERY clear that ALL NEW OUTLETS (Existing or not)in bedrooms must have arc fault protection. This covers new installations.

the nec is NOT allowing you to extend or install a new outlet without afci protection.

there is NO article that will allow you to extend an existing circuit or install a new branch circuit/outlet or receptacle or whatever you care to call without this protection.

new installation doesnt mean a new building...it means any new install since right now! if you are allowing or installing NEW outlets even if the house is a 100 years old...if it is in the bedroom you MUST have afci protection without it, it IS a violation of the NEC no matter how you try to twist the words or invent new meanings to existing words.

if i have a residence with a two wire circuit, then the service MUST be UPGRADED to meet the new requirement...plain and simple...you cant go around second guessing the code...if a receptacle or smoke detector or whatever is NEW in a bedroom then IT MUST HAVE AFCI..i did not see in the code where it says that the exception is a two wire service or that if the panel wont accept the breaker etc. etc..those comments are made up and does not exsit anywhere except in that persons mind..

the code is written for an 8th grade education...pretty simple stuff...

regards

greg

Im in at a job right now where they exstended a bedroom 5 feet out.I put all the new plugs and lights on a arc-fault breaker. The exsisting bedroom is not, do i comply with code?

Hi,
There is no requirement to retrofit existing installations with AFCI.

-regards

Greg

seems like Greg speaks with forked tongue?? In your previous post you had us believing that we had to change existing bedroom circuits to AFCI if we extended them???

Hi,
Geo- I do NOT speak with a forked tongue!

you are good at twisting things up!

I NEVER said what you just posted!

You may want to re-read the post.

What i said was that according to the VERY CLEAR NEC that ANY NEW installs had to be AFCI. that means ANY Extension of the circuit or ANY NEW OUTLETS..i want to hear you justify extending a circuit in a bedroom as not being NEW!

If you go to a 100 year old house and want to ADD an outlet in a bedroom THAT OUTLET MUST BE AFCI. so to meet that requirement AFCI must be added. How would you prpose to do that?

There are no AFCI receptacles...so the whole circuit would then have to be AFCI protected..just because the panel is a two wire panel or KNOB and tube or the panel wont accept is STILL not allowed! The code did that so that the PANEL WOULD GET UPGRADED!

I am guessing that you are an inspector..if you allow ANYBODY to extend or install A NEW OUTLET IN A BEDROOM and it is not AFCI protected you are NOT following the same NEC as the rest of us. Maybe you decide what is right or wrong where you are and that is fine.

I guess if you go to a house to change the service out to a new one you dont go in and add laundry circuits, GFCI or anything else? If you do you are VIOLATING THE CODE! The intent is that when a service change is needed and there is no GFCI or laundry circuits then, at the time of service upgrade you need to bring the rest of the dwelling into compliance! A lot of homeonwers dont like this but when else would it get done?

I will send a request for clarification to the NEC and let you know what THEY say.

thats what I said or tried to say..

it seemed to me in your post you were either misinterpreting or trying to put your spin on it.

pretty simple stuff, but I just wanted to clear up a lot of BS that gets posted by some folks who should really know better!

nothing personal and I am not picking on you...it is just that you admit to making broad statements and in several post of yours you are DEAD WRONG!!

I will be glad to match witts with you any day of the week! All in good fun though!

-regards

Greg



[This message has been edited by mustangelectric (edited 03-16-2005).]

Hi,
Geo- one more clarification..there is no requirement to go back and add AFCI to EXISTING circuits UNLESS NEW OUTLETS ARE ADDED or the CIRCUIT IS EXTENDED..i hope that clears it it up better.

-regards

Greg

Hi,
Actually after looking at my post i will stand behind that!

"There is no requirement to retrofit existing installations with AFCI." There is no restrictions on doing it.

that means to go back and re-fit the circuit with AFCI..NO REQUIREMENT TO DO THAT...THERE is a requirement to do that IF YOU ADD TO OR EXTEND THE CIRCUIT! WHY else would they say on new installations? New as used in the code is a reference to time...it means after right now in time... not a new receptacle you just bought! anything before right now is OLD..

the key word is EXISTING AND RETROFIT...I SAID NOTHING ABOUT NEW..your going to have to try and twist a little harder..i guess you got upset because I called you/commented about your comments on motors not be classified as continuous! That is speaking with a forked tongue...just another way to call someone a liar. I guess your an old hand around here and people just accept what you say as gospel...i am sorry if i stole your thunder! I hope you are not upset and we can still be friends! It's all in good fun..no hard feelings ok? I am the kind of guy who is not afraid to stand up and be heard even in a place where there are obviosuly some very knowledgable folks...if your wrong most of the time it will get pointed out..i just dont beleive everything i hear!

right?

-regards

Greg



[This message has been edited by mustangelectric (edited 03-16-2005).]

Just as a point of interest I ran a conversion of an average utility transformer's kAIC value into Horsepower...
450 kAIC = 289,000 horsepower at 480V 1 phase.

hum...289,000 HP traveling at the speed of light...personally I'd install AFCI receptacles everywhere.

Greg- I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I understand where you are coming from and if you are mistaken, you certianly are erroring in the safe direction. I know several people on Code panels and have had discussions with them and I am quite comfortable not asking for AFCI on an existing circuit when it is extended. If they install a new circuit- I ask for AFCI since it's a branch circuit requirement not a outlet requirement. If we had wording that said " all outlets in bedrooms shall have AFCI protection I would feel differently. And I take back the "forked tongue" remark. Must have looked rather cold in print.