ECN Electrical Forum - Discussion Forums for Electricians, Inspectors and Related Professionals
ECN Shout Chat
ShoutChat
Recent Posts
Al Hildenbrand - Minneapolis - obituary
by bcpappas - 02/02/23 08:01 PM
Violation?
by renosteinke - 01/27/23 09:52 PM
Does NEC 551.71 (F) apply to dwellings?
by BigB - 01/20/23 10:46 AM
Power submeter connections
by HotLine1 - 01/19/23 09:09 AM
New in the Gallery:
Burger King crown sillyness
Burger King crown sillyness
by wa2ise, December 11
240/208 to a house
240/208 to a house
by wa2ise, October 9
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 131 guests, and 8 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Page 3 of 3 1 2 3
#89209 09/28/04 05:42 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 494
M
Member
hi,
thanks for the replies. there were some very interesting responses.

myself i do not like the idea of being in a tub of water knowing there is 240 vac on a 50 a breaker just below my rearend.even if it is a protected circuit...somehow that is always on my mind while in a hot tub..i guess i feel better knowing there is a switch within sight..

i always put a switch, cord connection, or disconnect as close as possible to the unit for purely safety reasons. i am not too worried about the maintenance aspect but rather the emergency or the unplanned incident where a persons life is on the line..you never know what can happen..

i do not really understand why it would be a requiremnt in a commercial setting and not a residential setting..i say that is irrelevant

thanks again for the responses

mustang



[This message has been edited by mustangelectric (edited 09-28-2004).]

Stay up to Code with the Latest NEC:


2020 NEC & Related Reference & Study Guides
2020 NEC & Related Reference & Study Guides
Pass Your Exam the FIRST TIME with these Exam Prep Combos:
 

>> Master Electrician Exam Prep     >> JourneyMan Electrician Exam Prep
 

#89210 09/28/04 05:47 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,507
G
Member
If you are calling the mushroom head push button a disconnect and it might even be labeled on/off it does not qualify as a disconnect but instead the contactor is the disconnecting means. Look at 430.103. If the contactor is near the panel with the GFCI breaker in it. The breaker could qualify as the disconnect for the controller and hence the disconnect for the SPA. The disconnect under the skirt could qualify as the disconnect within site of the motor. Kinda sounds like you have a unique installation and subject to approval by the inspector who will be approving the job. The Mushroom head stop button is definitely not a disconnect if it's operating a contactor.


George Little
#89211 09/28/04 09:40 PM
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,233
H
Member
Gentleman,

(I love how polite everyone is on this board.) [Linked Image] Again wether I like having a disconnect within sight of a spa or not doesn't matter. I believe that if you read the code book and right now I am talking just about spas, in a single family dwelling. an emergency disconnect is not required as per section 680.41. I also believe that we should have that disconnect there, but as per the code, it is not required. Now that is just an emergency disconnect.
As for a service equipment disconnect switch. As per section 680.12, it requires a disconnect means for any pool equipment and it has to within eyesight of the equipment(There is no distance given), not the pool or spa and more than 5 feet away from the pool. Sometimes pool equipment is located in a different location than the pool itself. I have seen equipment located on different levels, around the corner, in a different room than the pool or spa. (Again in a single family dwelling) Again this is my opinion and if the AHJ disagrees with you, then I would ask then which code section are they quoting from.

#89212 09/29/04 07:07 AM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,507
G
Member
Thanks harold, You can work in the town I inspect in any time. You'd make my job easy :-))


George Little
#89213 09/29/04 07:27 AM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 26
R
Member
From the service tech's perspective, the PB is the disconnect. I submit that, from a code perspective, the PB+contactor (not just the PB, not just the contactor) is the disconnect and is allowed. Per 100.A, Disconnecting Means "A device, or group of devices, or other means by which the conductors of a circuit can be disconnected from their source of supply". Because the PB is the only method of operating the contactor, and that PB is within sight of the spa, the combination of PB+contactor met the requirements. This was discussed with and approved by the AHJ before installation.

The main purpose of the PB+contactor was to provide an unobtrusive service disconnect in a custom room built for the spa. It also happens to provide an emergency shutoff for the spa, even though this was not required for a residential installation.

[This message has been edited by rlrct (edited 09-29-2004).]

#89214 09/29/04 10:03 AM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,148
R
Member
Pierre,
Quote
Because the skirt is screwed into place, the switch is not accessible [as per Art 100 - Accessible (as applied to equipment)].
680.12 requires that the disconnect be with in sight of and accessible from the equipment. In my opinion a disconnect behind the same removable panel that encloses the equipment is permitted by the code. The disconnect behind this panel is accessible from the equipment location. The cover has to be off to access either item.
Don

[This message has been edited by resqcapt19 (edited 09-29-2004).]


Don(resqcapt19)
#89215 09/29/04 10:07 AM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,148
R
Member
rlrct,
Quote
Because the PB is the only method of operating the contactor, and that PB is within sight of the spa, the combination of PB+contactor met the requirements.
I don't agree. The disconnect itself must open the power conductors. The push button only controls the contactor and does not directly open the power conductors and is not a means of disconnect. It is a very poor safety practice to use a control device as a "lockout device". You must lock and tag the switch that actually opens the power circuit conductors before working on the equipment.
Don


Don(resqcapt19)
#89216 09/29/04 12:33 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 138
R
Member
Quote
As per section 680.12, it requires a disconnect means for any pool equipment and it has to within eyesight of the equipment(There is no distance given), not the pool or spa and more than 5 feet away from the pool. Sometimes pool equipment is located in a different location than the pool itself.

Definition of In Sight From (Within Sight From, Within Sight) as taken from Article 100. "Where this Code specifies that one equipment shall be 'in sight from,' 'within sight from,' or 'within sight,' and so forth, of another equipment, the specified equipment is to be visible and not more than 15m (50 ft) distant from the other.

Equipment A (disconnect) needs to be within 50 feet and visible of Equipment B (spa or spa motor if seperated).

[This message has been edited by royta (edited 09-29-2004).]

#89217 09/30/04 01:22 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 494
M
Member
hi,
thanks for the replies. isnt the pushbutton an INTEGRAL part of the contactor just as the HANDLE of the disconnect switch is an INTEGRAL part of the disconnect? the blades of a disconnect are what opens the circuit. just like the set of contacts in the pb station can fail, so too can the handle of the disconnect. i have never seen a disconnect that the handle quit working on but there are a lot of things i have not seen that have happened.

a contactor needs an input or it will stay closed, a disconnect needs an input or it will remain closed.

the problem with the pb station is that it does not remove the power supply. the contactor could be stuck closed..

i beleive there is a definition that would clear this up..nice debate though

even though a disco may not be required at a residential site, the ahj likes to see it so there is another reason to install one..

thanks

mustang

#89218 10/01/04 08:44 PM
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,233
H
Member
George,

First of all thank you for your response. Second of all, I have been doing electrical work since 1975. I was in my own business for at least 15 years, and now I am the AHJ for 4 towns for at least 5 years. As an AHJ, I don't red tag someone because they didn't wire up something like I would do it. I am a firm believer in the NEC. As someone taught me, If you can't read the violation, you can't write the violation. The code is the code and that is it. I may not like an installation, and I might have done it differently. However, if it meets the code, I will pass the job. [Linked Image]

Page 3 of 3 1 2 3

Link Copied to Clipboard
Featured:

Tools for Electricians
Tools for Electricians
 

* * * * * * *
2023 National Electrical Code (NEC)
2023 NEC Now Available!
 
* * * * * * *

2020 Master Electrician Exam Preparation Combos
2020 NEC Electrician
Exam Prep Combos:
Master / Journeyman

 

Member Spotlight
The Watt Doctor
The Watt Doctor
Humble, TX
Posts: 440
Joined: December 2001
Top Posters(30 Days)
BigB 4
triple 3
Popular Topics(Views)
303,019 Are you busy
232,126 Re: Forum
216,777 Need opinion
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5