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210.52(D) #81086
07/11/02 09:54 PM
07/11/02 09:54 PM
sparky66wv  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,236
West Virginia
In the powder room of the house I'm wiring (rough-in almost done) the General doesn't want the GFCI receptacle for the basin as required by 210.52(D) to be counter height. He wants it in the baseboard below and to the right of the basin

210.52(D) Bathrooms. In dwelling units, atleast one wall receptacle outlet shall be installed in bathrooms within 900mm (3 ft) of the outside edge of each basin. The receptacle outlet shall be located on a wall or partition that is adjacent to the basin or basin countertop.

His argument: A "powder room" is not a bathroom.

My argument: definition of "bathroom" according to the NEC:

Bathroom: An area including a basin with one or more of the following: a toilet, a tub, or a shower.

His argument: It won't be used for anything anyway.

My argument: doesn't matter.

Then I start to get dirty looks and I start to feel that I'm protecting myself right out of a job.

So... Lowering the darn thing is very difficult anyway, all of the drywall is up except where the recept is and the cable is too short to reach where they want it.

I don't want to put it there anyway...

What do I do? What would you do?


-Virgil
Residential/Commercial Inspector
5 Star Inspections
Member IAEI
2017 / 2014 NEC & Related Books and Study Guides
Re: 210.52(D) #81087
07/11/02 10:15 PM
07/11/02 10:15 PM
R
resqcapt19  Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,148
IL
The section does not require the receptacle to be above the counter. It just must be within 3' hortizontally from the basin on a wall that is adjacent to the basin. Where does it say it must be at or above the basin elevation?
Don


Don(resqcapt19)
Re: 210.52(D) #81088
07/11/02 11:00 PM
07/11/02 11:00 PM
sparky66wv  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,236
West Virginia
OK, thanks Don... If that's how the word "adjacent" is interpreted... Heck, I dunno...

Really, I thought it did mean above, and I was going to suggest that the code be amended to reflect that, but hey, if that ain't the codes intention, then the points moot and I'm wrong...

I'll move the receptacle in the morning.

Geez, I really do learn something new here everyday.

(Some times it's a little hard on the pride, but hey, I will admit when I'm wrong).


-Virgil
Residential/Commercial Inspector
5 Star Inspections
Member IAEI
Re: 210.52(D) #81089
07/12/02 06:05 AM
07/12/02 06:05 AM
R
Redsy  Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,056
Bucks County PA
spark,
How wide is the counter? If you put the receptacle in the baseboard, will you still be within 3' of the edge of the sink (basin)?
I'm guessing not.
BTW,
Adjacent means "nearby" or "close to"

Re: 210.52(D) #81090
07/12/02 07:28 AM
07/12/02 07:28 AM
sparky66wv  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,236
West Virginia
You'd be right Redsy, but Don's interpretation seems to be "3' horizontally", and the verticle distance doesn't seem to matter.

Guess I'm putting the job on hold until I get better answers.


-Virgil
Residential/Commercial Inspector
5 Star Inspections
Member IAEI
Re: 210.52(D) #81091
07/12/02 07:58 AM
07/12/02 07:58 AM
sparky66wv  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,236
West Virginia
Oh, there's no counter, just a basin on a stand.

I still think your point is valid though.


-Virgil
Residential/Commercial Inspector
5 Star Inspections
Member IAEI
Re: 210.52(D) #81092
07/12/02 09:47 AM
07/12/02 09:47 AM
R
resqcapt19  Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,148
IL
I think that the intent is that the recp be above the counter or basin, but the words don't say that.
Don


Don(resqcapt19)
Re: 210.52(D) #81093
07/12/02 03:34 PM
07/12/02 03:34 PM
E
Electricmanscott  Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,457
Holden, MA USA
To me 3 feet is 3 feet regardless of the direction. The fact that it is a powder room and not a full bath would make me far more flexible if I were an inspector. I would move it, charge an extra, and maybe render the installed drywall useless in the process. (If I was feeling grumpy)

Re: 210.52(D) #81094
07/12/02 06:54 PM
07/12/02 06:54 PM
S
sparky  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,371
Funny that this is the GC's wish here, the dude who's job it is to make the job run smoothly

Re: 210.52(D) #81095
07/13/02 02:42 AM
07/13/02 02:42 AM
sparky66wv  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,236
West Virginia
I should point out that the General Contractor in this case is really a team of engineers and architects (with secretaries and accountants) who act as "point men" for the jobs. Everything is subbed out, so there's "building" (framing) contractors, HVAC, plumbers, trim-carpenters, dry-wallers, drywall finishers, the electrical contractor (me), the excavators, the landscapers, the EC for the landscape lights (Joe M.), etc. etc. etc....

So the GC in this case has major interest here. In fact, on the second day of the job at the one I contracted (from the beginning) I found out from the point man that the switch boxes had to be exactly placed so that the finished door trim is 2" from the cover plate on all switches. I already knew they had spec'd for metal boxes.

So instead of hanging 40 or so boxes an hour, I'm hanging maybe, one per hour. Either have to block and shim out and/or cut chunks out of studs, and almost every recessed canister light's center line ended up with a truss in the way.

My bid at 2.5x my "normal" rate has turned into an underbid...

I would've never guessed.

Man who couldn't come out ahead on an $11K 3000 sq footer bid?

(change orders may push my original bid of $10.2K to about $12K when finished)...

Don, I agree and my gut feeling says that the intent of the code would be to have it above the basin or basin countertop, just don't have the "truth" to back me up...

It was a good opportunity for me to show how quickly I can admit to a mistake. Actually, I did the change for free including replacing the drywall (they would have back-charged me for the drywall anyway...).

I don't want to put a stop to this debate, I'd actually like to get to the bottom of it, and maybe even request a change in code. But I really don't want to be playing musical chairs with the location of this recept so if we finally decide that it should be above... I ain't moving it again.

Sorry to be stubborn, but I'm just getting a little weary.

[Linked Image]

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 07-13-2002).]


-Virgil
Residential/Commercial Inspector
5 Star Inspections
Member IAEI
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