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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,392
this is dry code...lacking make my point for me.......

what say we run a 3ph3wire delta service , feeders & branch circuits in GRC...

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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 582
Ron Offline
You will find the PE exam to require some knowledge of the NEC.
The Electrical Engineering PE exam in NY includes:
AC/DC circuits, Three Phase Power, Power Factor Corrections, Power Transmission Lines,
Transformers, Induction Motors, Fault Current Calculations, Transients,
Semi Conductor Devices, Semi Conductor Amplifiers, Data Communications and Computer Circuits.
The reference to qualified Engineer pertains to the fact that most states permit an engineer of any discipline (and even an architect) to sign and seal on electrical drawings. So a qualified one, is one that knows something about electricity.

Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,392
As to the 2 original Q's the engineers had trouble with....

not all EGC's or Delta's are created equal, there is no single boiler plate code reference......

Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 127
As Ron said
"Most EE schools are set up for electronics, not power..." I had started to pursue an electrical engineering degree in 1980 and got 30 hours of general studies. Travelling and having fun at my work distracted me from finishing then. After 25 years in the trade I began to seriously consider finishing my degree. I could find no college in the Dallas, Tx area (including Tx A&M) that did not require you to spend a lot of time on electronics and computer courses. These schools did not have much related to power. I was told by a counselor at University of Texas at Arlington (a highly rated engineering college) that my work experience or any practical training would not qualify me for any credits or bypass. Most engineers I have dealt with did not really understand the practical aspects of Code application and were not fully able to interpret the requirements.

Gerald Powell

[This message has been edited by gpowellpec (edited 06-27-2002).]

Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,722
Broom Pusher and

Thanks for the Congrads on the EIT / FE!!! [Linked Image]

Still has a question on FORTRAN. The Reference Manuals I purchased for the exam cover FORTRAN, but only name the other various types of Languages in the preceeding chapter[s] - such as ADA, ALGOL, BASIC, COBOL, Pascal, etc.

One Manual has an example of Nested DO Loop in FORTRAN, which is written as:

DO 100 I = 1, 10
DO 90 J = 2, 6, 2
DO 80 K = 1, 10, 3

Never worked with FORTRAN, but it looks like the same logical approach as BASIC / VB [Visual Basic is what I have been currently trying to get the complete grasp of].

Anyhow, thanks to you and Ron for the messages.

Steve [Sparky],

Please do not feel outranked in the presence of any EE. The two of you together make a complete team, which is the only way to get the project done. One has more Theory skills, and the other has more Installation skills. Without one, the other will suffer.
You being in the field are in the Technician's position.
For a given project, the Technicians are only as good as the Engineer, and the Engineer is only as good as the Technicians. Poor skills on one side effects the other side.

The Engineer does the design and the Technicians do the "Leg Work" [all the hands on stuff, the paper work, phone calls, misc. red tape, and are very much involved with Alpha and Beta testing, which in our Power Electrical field would be kind of like smoke tests of given machinery, or to see if a design works properly for the client].

Wish more of the persons in the field knew this, so they do not feel an EE is the Be-all, End-All, Lord-God-King-Bookoo [stolen from the Zappa tune "Valley Girl"], but their (The Installer) work is meaningless.

I think I am too Liberal for my field [Linked Image]

Scott S.E.T.

Scott " 35 " Thompson
Just Say NO To Green Eggs And Ham!
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 2,527
At a physics-research site, I had the privilege of escorting a couple of real-decent PEs for the initial data acquisition for a couple-of-mile 8-MVA distribution tie line with switchgear mods. NFPA 70 was early in the standards boilerplate for the work, and were virtually universal for dealings involving electrical systems at the operation.

Their contract as-found and as-built drawings listed switchgear dimensions to ⅛-inch. They took a lot more interest and dedication to the job than most in-house engineering folks. [Our detailed specs for a very complete, years-evolved tried-and-true 13.8kV metering and relaying section showed up verbatim on another site of ‘theirs’ about a year later…]

Competent PEs make the NEC and updates their routine business. A 230kV utility-owned switchyard still has numerous aspects where the NEC is perfectly applicable—with nothing else nearly as appropriate. Ratings of miles of bundled DC- and AC-circuit SIS-wire ampacity calculations and overcurrent protection is one area. Why reinvent the wheel? It is one very useful and widely referenced ANSI standard.

Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 806
I have had the opportunity to work with a few engineers over the years, and they can be a real mixed bag. The ones who are easiest to work with started as technicians, machinists, or other "hands-on" types. The ones who come right out of college into an engineering job can be a real PITA, in my experience.

I worked as an electronics tech under one EE (I think he had a MSEE) who was rather full of himself. He drew up a schematic for a servo power amplifier, and dropped it on my bench to lash up a prototype. At first glance, the schematic showed several large electrolytic capacitors connected with incorrect polarity, power supply pins on a few ICs reversed, and several other "irregularities". I made a few notations on the schematic, and brought the schematic back to him, and was immediately told that HE was the engineer, I was "only a technician", and not to overstep my bounds by questioning HIS designs.

So I built the device, EXACTLY as drawn, and left it in his office for him. When he powered the thing up, there were several loud bangs and a big cloud of evil-smelling smoke. [Linked Image] When the dust settled, several hundred dollars worth of components were destroyed, and about 2 weeks of work were down the toilet. When management found out about what had happened (and the story was backed up by one of the junior engineers), he was out on his ass within days.

I now have his job, FWIW. [Linked Image]

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 518
Boy, does this thread open some old sores...
There are too many who assume a connection between "electrical engineering" and "electrical work." Engineers are 'number crunchers.' Oddly enough, the code allows you to depart from its' tables if you can do the necessary number crunching, hence the use of the term "engineering supervision."
Unfortunately, too many of our colleges give their grads a 'minor' in elitist snobbery. They teach their students that they are far superior to anyone without a degree, let alone someone in the "trades." Trade schools are looked upon as refuges for those not 'good enough' for a real school! This is then institutionalised by the federal government, who considers the presence of a degree as one of the prime distinctions between "exempt" professionals and "non-exempt" employees.
I'll give Joe's engineer credit for recognising his weaknesses, and asking the right questions. But, to answer Joe's question, I'd be surprised to find ANY engineering school that had any code-related courses, or even had the NEC in the bookstore. EE's are trained for design, with the stars going to microsoft, boeing, etc. The less stellar students go into manufacturing, and those remaining go to work for governments and utilities- at least, that's how it seems. So, anything an engineer knows about the code, or electrical work, is something that he picked up 'on the job,' after college.
I'm not saying that engineers are inferior; I'm saying that they're different. Expecting an EE to know electric work is a lot like expecting a mechanical engineer to know how to fix a car. It can happen, but don't assume it.

Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 36
TE Offline
In 20+ years I'll guess I've seen 2 sets
of correctly engineered electrical prints.

They were both done by Electrical Contractors.

I've always thought that in order to get a
PE and engineer facility electrical systems, should require some sort of electrical apprenticeship.

Lets see that adds up to about 10 years, I guess I'll be a lawyer.

Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,233

Let me add 2 cents here. I was given a set of prints to plan review. I failed the print and said that I wanted more information on the generator and the grounding of the generator. The engineering company called me and asked why I failed the plan. I told them that I just wanted to inspect the new generator (gen) and to make sure that it was installed as per the engineer's design and to make sure that it all met the NEC. The engineer told me that the contractor was to submit a plan as to how the generator (gen) was to be wired and to make sure that I liked the way the generator was to be wired. I told the engineer that neithe rthe contractor nor I was to be designing this Gen. HE was the person to be designing it, and that I would review his plan to make sure that it met NEC. I couldn't get that through his head. I told the contractor that I didn't want him to design anything, the EE was the man to sign off on the design.

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