ECN Forum Forums Code Related Discussion NEC & other Code issues GFCI's and refrigerators

DSpark
The fact that you have a GFCI powering your OWN reefer at home doesn't make it a good idea to install such for customers (remember that you're the guy that claims to have 2 lights wired in series, would you do that in somebody else's place?). I would prefer not to have a call back every time a client buys a new refrig. (What do you tell them, that they should return their new $2000 Amana because it tripped your $7 GFCI that's not required anyway? Most people would just think you didn't do the job right)

[This message has been edited by electure (edited 06-23-2001).]

>The fact that you have a GFCI powering your OWN reefer at home doesn't make it a good idea to install such for customers

And if you take the time to read my comments above, you would see that I don't.


>(remember that you're the guy that claims to have 2 lights wired in series, would you do that in somebody else's place?).

Don't be so rude. Those light were installed that way long before I was even born.

>I would prefer not to have a call back every time a client buys a new refrig. (What do you tell them, that they should return their new $2000 Amana because it tripped your $7 GFCI that's not required anyway?
Have you ever seen a new appliance without a ground fault that trips a GFCI?

>not exactly your strong point either!

What do you mean? I have lots of empirical data. I've run a water pump and a fridge off a GFCI.

I do regularly put in GFCIs for window air conditioners.

I have never have a problem. To me that is a lot of empirical evidence.

However, there is this old wives tale about nuisance tripping. Not a single person has come forward with an actual example. People just believe that it happens. I suggest that it happens only with leaky devices.

>I have no reason to disbelieve the claims or "theories" of nuisance tripping.
I have little reason to believe it. It is not much of a theory. A theory would explain how it happens with a real equation. Saying that hot and neutral could easily have an imbalance because of switches in the hot does not explain much if there are no switches downstream from the GFCI.

However, I have been considering this theory and I'll work on it when I get a chance.

>Isn't a Refrigerator a Grounded Appliance and should therefore trip a breaker if the frame becomes energized?
Yes. But it your child breaks the light bulb and sticks his finger in it, do you want to wait for 50 amps to flow before the breaker trips?


>Why the argument about removing it from the GFCI?
Where was this?

>From working in the field I have seen many times where a GFCI has tripped for no apparent reason at the same time as a lightning storm or during some unusual power event. Take that as you wish.

I haven't seen this. Did you test all of the equipment on the circuit to insure that it was free of ground faults?

>If you want to ignore what seems to be the general consensus that's up to you.
It's not a matter of ignoring it. I don't ignore it. I caution people that GFCIs are rumored to have nuisance tripping. I don't normally install GFCIs for refrigerators. I would recommend against using a GFCI for a freezer.

>I would suggest that you start a topic under the Theory section if you want to delve into it further.
Is that an order?

I can quite readily explain why lightning exposes existing ground faults. A leak of 3 mA at 120 V readily becomes a leak of 6 mA or more during 300 V surge.

Pinched insulation may not leak at 150 V but does breakdown at 300 V.

Copper dust may not leak much at 150 V. But at 300 V, it arcs over and makes a good ground fault.

To me that is a lot of empirical evidence

I suppose you are correct,in that you are king of your empire!

Why then don't you utilize 215-9 ??

Would this not be economically correct for your abudance of GFI desires?

DS,

I am suggesting that if you want to discuss possibilities regarding theory there is an area set aside for it. This is a Code forum and Questions and Answers here are largely around that subject.


Didn't you write this?
"It might" - that sounds like you are allowing the possibility, what changed? Why is the burden of proof on us?


BTW, you said Twice that you run your Refrigerator off a GFCI.

[This message has been edited by Bill Addiss (edited 06-23-2001).]

>"It might" - that sounds like you are allowing the possibility, what changed?
Nothing changed. I will always allow for the possibility. It is impossible to rule out everything.

> Why is the burden of proof on us?
If I said that GFCIs nuisance trip because pixies come along at night and like the clicking noise made when they push the test button, would you believe that?

I mean by default I don't believe something unless it seems believable. You and I just have different standards for what we consider believable about causes of nuisance tripping.

I don't know for an absolute fact that pixies don't like tripping GFCIs. But I consider the odds so remote as not to be a concern.

The ground faults are really caused by sparkling pixie dust which then vanishes.

>you said Twice that you run your Refrigerator off a GFCI.
That is correct. It has been running fine that way for over 7 years. Would you like for me to say it again?

When I said freezer, I was talking about a deep freeze or a chest freezer, etc., not a refrigerator. Is that what you are getting at?

>Why then don't you utilize 215-9 ??

Are you asking why I don't just use GFCI breakers for everything?

Two major disadvantages are that one has to go to the panel to test or reset them.

Considering how rarely people test a GFCI when it's right there, I can't imagine them going to the panel to test them.

My habit with rarely used GFCI outlets is to leave them tripped when not in use. That reminds me or the next person to test before using.

I don't get what you are saying about economics either. But yes, a GFCI outlet is usually cheaper than a GFCI breaker.

DS,

You're not making much sense and can't even seem to agree with your own comments.

>You're not making much sense and can't even seem to agree with your own comments.

If you think that any of my comments don't agree, try to post them side by side.

I think you just think that I said something that I never said.