ECN Electrical Forum - Discussion Forums for Electricians, Inspectors and Related Professionals
ECN Shout Chat
Shout Box
Recent Posts
High current GFI vs regular GFCI
by HotLine1. 11/15/18 02:32 PM
This anti-theist is priceless!!!
by djk. 11/14/18 07:19 AM
Single phase and what you call it.
by dsk. 11/12/18 11:10 AM
220/230/240V 60Hz Systems
by Albert. 11/07/18 12:48 AM
New in the Gallery:
What is this for?
Plug terminals
Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 12 guests, and 30 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Minimum # of circuits, commercial #77088
04/22/01 10:58 AM
04/22/01 10:58 AM
Tom  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,044
Shinnston, WV USA
We seem to have covered the minimum number of dwelling circuits quite well.

Let's try a differant exercise.

5000 square foot repair facility for left handed widgets. No hazardous locations, widgets are not self propelled & do not use any type of fuel. Heating is done with a woodburning stove, air conditioning is accomplished by opening the doors. All work is done with hand tools, you know, cordless hammers, the original cordless screwdrivers, etc. In other words, there are no other electrical loads that you know of.

Service is 200 amp, single phase overhead. Customer asked you for a code minimum job, jumped on your price, then complained about your installation (or lack of one) when you were done.

What's the minimum # of circuits for this building?

Tom


Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example.
2017 / 2014 NEC & Related Books and Study Guides
Re: Minimum # of circuits, commercial #77089
04/22/01 01:02 PM
04/22/01 01:02 PM
Bill Addiss  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 3,903
NY, USA
Tom,

OK, always liked Widgets.. let me start.
  • 1 circuit for the light by the Panelboard.
  • 1 circuit for the show window outlet(s)(if exists)
  • Pay the Bill?


What's a "cordless hammer" ? [Linked Image]

Bill

Re: Minimum # of circuits, commercial #77090
04/22/01 01:23 PM
04/22/01 01:23 PM
G
Glenn  Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 75
Bill,

Did you consider 600-5 ?

What is needed to meet Building codes, such as Exit signs?

Glenn

Re: Minimum # of circuits, commercial #77091
04/22/01 04:36 PM
04/22/01 04:36 PM
S
sparky  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,371
Tom, this is great ! how low can we go??
[Linked Image]

let's say it falls under Industrial Commercial (loft) buildings @ 2watts per sq ft
5000 x 2= 10,000w
let's give Glenn 220-3(b)(6) 1200w of it
( good call Glenn)

for the remaining 8800w, let's use 210-23(b), because this guy has no power tools !
I'm gonna run a 240v 30a lighting circuit(s)

strict 240, can't catch me up in 210-4 here [Linked Image]

240v x 30a= 7200
damn, gotta make it two!

so 3 circuits is my best shot!

[Linked Image]

[This message has been edited by sparky (edited 04-22-2001).]

Re: Minimum # of circuits, commercial #77092
04/22/01 06:02 PM
04/22/01 06:02 PM
W
wayne  Offline
Member
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 54
NC
Tom, I like the way Bill describe it.

1 circuit for the lights

1 circuit for the outlets

Pay the bull.
You could not make it more simple than that.

Wayne [Linked Image]

Re: Minimum # of circuits, commercial #77093
04/22/01 09:56 PM
04/22/01 09:56 PM
Bill Addiss  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 3,903
NY, USA
Tom,

After reading the 'specs' again I'm going to say with the information given that my guess would be down to 1 circuit.

You don't mention it being a store so I'm taking out the Show window circuit.

Glenn,

The way I'm figuring is that Our 'specs' say a repair facility. This could even be a portion of a larger building which is not 'accessible to pedestrians' and therefore would not need any Sign or outline lighting.

Sparky,

Aren't those the requirements for sizing the service? I don't see any required lighting or receptacles like there are in Dwellings.

Tom?

[Linked Image]

Re: Minimum # of circuits, commercial #77094
04/22/01 11:54 PM
04/22/01 11:54 PM
Scott35  Offline

Broom Pusher and
Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,708
Anaheim, CA. USA
This is definitely an interesting thread.

Kind of funny that a Commercial location would only require that 1 circuit for lighting and recepts, whereas the minimums for a house are 5 circuits [it's 5 circuits, or is it more / less??].
But that's the minimum requirements.

Love the scenarion explainations, Tom!! Mind if I use them in some Hypotheticals in the future?? - mostly in the field, but possibly in the BB's.

Bill,
Ya, the VA/sq. ft. stuff is to figure the minimum ampacity / load demand on the feeders. The receptacles [at 180 VA / duplex] would be added to this lighting load, then figured by demand factor [since there's so few, the demand would be 100%].

I would imagine that, following the order of all the other conveniences - the lighting would be from either gas lamps, or burning trashcans. Once again, no lighting loads
But there might be an exception to this, as pointed out by another person - illuminated exit signs.
That would depend on the UBC and local Building, Electric and Fire/Life/Safety codes. If there is no overriding code, then no illuminated exit signage needed.

Add 600-5 since it looks like the building is at least somewhat a stand-alone deal, by having it's own 200 amp service [I'm grasping at straws].
So that's one exterior lighting / sign circuit.

If exits are needed: 3 circuits [1 recepts/lights, 1 exterior, 1 exits]. then send out Invoice.

If no exits: 2 circuits, then Invoice.

Scott SET


Scott " 35 " Thompson
Just Say NO To Green Eggs And Ham!
Re: Minimum # of circuits, commercial #77095
04/23/01 07:20 AM
04/23/01 07:20 AM
Tom  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,044
Shinnston, WV USA
I suppose I could have been a little more clear. Only the NEC counts, other codes need not apply, which you would know if I told you this would be built in WV, outside of city limits.

A strong case can be made for Glenn's 600-5(a). This is one that is usually missed or ignored. I realize the Mountain State is so steep that we'll sell you both sides of the same acre, but you can pretty much walk up to any building. I don't believe that "accessible to pedestrians" is defined in the NEC, so taken very liberally, the circuit is required. Of course, Bill has a point that this might be part of a larger facility, but it would have to be completely surrounded by that facility with no exterior doors of its own (I think?).

Sparky's calculations seem fine to me. 210-11 requires the branch circuits to be provided based on the calculations in 220-3. 210-11(a) tells us how to calculate the number of required circuits. I think that 2 is the answer. Install the minimum number of circuits and one light fixture near the panel to comply with 110-26(d).

Therefore- 3 circuits is all that are required in this building.

Cordless hammer- plain old hammer, no batteries. When someone asks to borrow my cordless screwdriver, I hand them a 4" long Klein straight blade, after all, there is no cord.

Scott, help yourself. I didn't use right handed widgets because they are powered by Plutonium 240 which puts out a lot of btu's & would have required a real HVAC system.

I've used this example on occaision (or one like it), to show that wiring a house can be a lot more complicated that wiring a commercial building. This really hits home when you realize that this building doesn't even require 1 plain old 120 volt receptacle anywhere in the building. Compare that to one every twelve feet in most rooms of a house.

Tom



[This message has been edited by Tom (edited 04-23-2001).]


Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example.
Re: Minimum # of circuits, commercial #77096
04/23/01 07:51 AM
04/23/01 07:51 AM
Bill Addiss  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 3,903
NY, USA
Tom,

I was kidding about the Hammer. I'll go through your reasoning later with that fine-toothed comb as is our custom here. [Linked Image]

Just a quick comment. If the Building entrance is through a Common hallway and has no outside walls except for a rear Roll-up door for deliveries I would say that it would fit the bill for not being acessible by pedestrians as per 600-5. Could even be on the 10th floor. Just the fact that you did not describe the building means that almost anything can be possible.. right?


Bill


Featured:

2017 Master Electrician Exam Preparation Combos
2017 NEC Electrician
Exam Prep Combos:
Master / Journeyman

 

Member Spotlight
JoeKP
JoeKP
Berkley, MA
Posts: 144
Joined: March 2008
Show All Member Profiles 
Top Posters(30 Days)
Admin 8
Popular Topics(Views)
251,498 Are you busy
188,680 Re: Forum
178,382 Need opinion
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.1
(Release build 20180101)
Page Time: 0.043s Queries: 14 (0.009s) Memory: 1.0087 MB (Peak: 1.1755 MB) Zlib enabled. Server Time: 2018-11-16 05:41:38 UTC