ECN Electrical Forum - Discussion Forums for Electricians, Inspectors and Related Professionals
ECN Shout Chat
Shout Box
Recent Posts
334.80 and fire caulk
by gfretwell. 06/21/18 11:35 AM
Calling all Non-US members!! (Non-US only)
by HotLine1. 06/13/18 01:50 PM
GE Lighting Recalls LED Tube Lamps
by Admin. 06/12/18 09:32 PM
Ketra Recalls Recessed Downlights
by Admin. 06/12/18 09:17 PM
diazed fuses
by Texas_Ranger. 06/11/18 07:31 AM
New in the Gallery:
Plug terminals
Housebilding DIY wiring
Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 39 guests, and 9 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Pancake box question #64252
04/03/06 05:38 PM
04/03/06 05:38 PM
Grover  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 109
Sebago, ME, USA
We've been debating the "legality" of pancake boxes on several jobs, so I thought I'd throw it out here...

3 1/4 x 1/2 Raco pancake is 3.9 cu in; 4 x 1/2 Raco is 6 cu in. There are also several "blocks" that fit over vinyl with varying cu in capacity.

Fill factor - #14 - 2 cu in per conductor plus 2 cu in for all grounds = 6 cu in (no clamps - black button for connector).

So, 3 1/4 can't be used anywhere, but 4" is ok for typical outside light next to door.

Right or wrong? How do you guys do it? Rough in - a wire poked out next to the door, and then comes finish......

Thanks for input / discussion.

Work Gear for Electricians and the Trades
Re: Pancake box question #64253
04/03/06 06:05 PM
04/03/06 06:05 PM
I
iwire  Offline
Moderator
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,391
North Attleboro, MA USA
The box fill rules allow including additional volume from added sections.

Quote
314.16(A) Box Volume Calculations. The volume of a wiring enclosure (box) shall be the total volume of the assembled sections, and, where used, the space provided by plaster rings, domed covers, extension rings, and so forth, that are marked with their volume or are made from boxes the dimensions of which are listed in Table 314.16(A).


The people making the boxes do not know [Linked Image] that the box will be used without a domed cover with a marked volume.

In the end it is up to the installer to use the boxes code compliantly.

Bob


Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts
Re: Pancake box question #64254
04/03/06 06:14 PM
04/03/06 06:14 PM
C
Celtic  Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 361
NJ
Do you think the fixture canopy has any allowance?


The total box volume is determined by adding the individual volumes of the box components. The components include the box itself plus any attachments to it, such as a plaster ring, an extension ring, or a dome cover.


~~ CELTIC ~~
...-= NJ =-...
Re: Pancake box question #64255
04/03/06 06:19 PM
04/03/06 06:19 PM
I
iwire  Offline
Moderator
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,391
North Attleboro, MA USA
I think a dome cover is a canopy.

I just can not remember seeing any with a marked volume which is part of the requirement.


Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts
Re: Pancake box question #64256
04/03/06 06:24 PM
04/03/06 06:24 PM
C
Celtic  Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 361
NJ
iwire...I'll agree with you that a dome is a canopy....and I have yet to see a cover that has a volume stamped on it.

Seems we posted at about the same time, but you had a quicker trigger finger (I still "hunt and peck" on the key board)


~~ CELTIC ~~
...-= NJ =-...
Re: Pancake box question #64257
04/03/06 06:27 PM
04/03/06 06:27 PM
R
Ryan_J  Offline
Moderator
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,374
West Jordan, Utah, USA
I typically buy it if it has (1) 14-2 in it.


Ryan Jackson,
Salt Lake City
Re: Pancake box question #64258
04/03/06 06:35 PM
04/03/06 06:35 PM
Grover  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 109
Sebago, ME, USA
So, we're all talking about the 4" pancake, not the 3" one - right?

I agree that the dome or canopy does increase the volume, but marked?.....

So why do we continue to see the 3" pancake sold/ manufactured?

Thanks for the continuing dialog....

Re: Pancake box question #64259
04/03/06 06:44 PM
04/03/06 06:44 PM
I
iwire  Offline
Moderator
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,391
North Attleboro, MA USA
Quote
So, we're all talking about the 4" pancake, not the 3" one - right?


My answer fits either.

Quote
So why do we continue to see the 3" pancake sold/ manufactured?


They make what sells and pancake boxes sell.


Bob


Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts
Re: Pancake box question #64260
04/03/06 06:46 PM
04/03/06 06:46 PM
C
Celtic  Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 361
NJ
At this point, we are talking about a box smaller than 4" (your 4x1/2" IS 6 cu.in - so it's "legal" for the one 14/2 romex).

The smaller box (I haven't seen a 3 1/4 x 1/2" box, but a 3x 5/8" box) is what we are on.


Here's an interesting article from Mike Holt:
Outlet Box sizing

The page is dated 2002.

Q:
Domed Fixture Canopy [314.16(B)(1), Ex.].
A round 4 x 1/2 in. box has a total volume of 7 cubic inches and has factory internal cable clamps. Can this pancake box be used with a lighting luminaire that has a domed canopy? The branch-circuit wiring is 14/2 nonmetallic-sheath cable and the luminaire has three fixture wires and one ground wire all smaller than 14 AWG.
(a) Yes (b) No

A:?

(Check the link for answer )


********
EDIT:
iwire...seems the proper term is a DOMED fixture CANOPY

LOL

[This message has been edited by Celtic (edited 04-03-2006).]


~~ CELTIC ~~
...-= NJ =-...
Re: Pancake box question #64261
04/03/06 06:50 PM
04/03/06 06:50 PM
Grover  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 109
Sebago, ME, USA
I agree iwire....

On another "point of discussion" - this has been ongoing discussion for a while on several jobs.....

The ground wire. tie to the pancake, or to the fixture bar, or both? Fixture bar gets connected to the pancake, so no need to to take bare ground to pancake, just loop the braided "luminere" [sic] ground wire to the fixture bar, nut it to the 14/2 NM ground, and done......

Grov

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Featured:

2017 Master Electrician Exam Preparation Combos
2017 NEC Electrician
Exam Prep Combos:
Master / Journeyman

 

Member Spotlight
AllClear
AllClear
Belmond Iowa US
Posts: 44
Joined: August 2005
Show All Member Profiles 
Top Posters(30 Days)
twh 5
Popular Topics(Views)
247,675 Are you busy
184,993 Re: Forum
174,297 Need opinion
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.1
(Release build 20180101)
Page Time: 0.028s Queries: 15 (0.005s) Memory: 1.0257 MB (Peak: 1.2017 MB) Zlib enabled. Server Time: 2018-06-23 08:07:53 UTC