ECN Electrical Forum - Discussion Forums for Electricians, Inspectors and Related Professionals
ECN Shout Chat
Top Posters(30 Days)
sparky 4
BigB 2
Recent Posts
2017 NEC Changes
by HotLine1. 12/14/17 07:24 PM
Dimmable LED 2x4 lay in fixtures
by HotLine1. 12/14/17 07:15 PM
Casino Wiring methods
by HotLine1. 12/09/17 10:44 AM
Ground wire Size to water Line.
by HotLine1. 12/05/17 12:11 PM
Flexible conduit to an outside Spa
by gfretwell. 12/05/17 12:28 AM
New in the Gallery:
Gallery Test
Popular Topics(Views)
243,056 Are you busy
179,492 Re: Forum
170,415 Need opinion
Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 11 guests, and 8 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
#58406 - 11/09/05 09:30 AM AFCI in other countries??  
Mike Wescoatt  Offline
Member
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 161
Cedar City, Utah
A post by new member Roland Regneri got me thinking... Are there AFCI's or an equal anywhere but the USA? Such as RCD's are equal to GFCI's, etc.


Mike Wescoatt

Work Gear for Electricians and the Trades

#58407 - 11/09/05 04:45 PM Re: AFCI in other countries??  
Wolfgang  Offline
Member
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 153
the very West of Germany
You'd maybe better posted that thread in the Non-US subforum.

RCD is not equal to GFCI. A "normal" RCD does not need an normal input voltage voltage to act, it consists of a passive coil adding up the currents going thru. This nowadays works down to 30mA for three phase and 10 mA for one phase systems. The typical cut off time is 10 to 30 ms. In German f.i. they are abbreviated "FI"-switch. A standard GFCI is probably more comparable to a "DI"-switch which is used as additional protection measure but depends on the presence of a reasonable input voltage to run its internal electronics.

In harmonized norms both types are called RCD, but the second type is rare here.

But your point was AFCI. As a matter of fact I've invested the last thirty minutes to understand what that is, still I do not understand how it really works, but I've never heard about that in Western Europe.

May be we have no arcing just shorts?

[Linked Image] Wolfgang

[This message has been edited by Wolfgang (edited 11-09-2005).]


#58408 - 11/09/05 07:43 PM Re: AFCI in other countries??  
frank  Offline
Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 376
windsor ontario canada
We have AFCI's in Canada,GFCI as well.Whats an RCD?


#58409 - 11/10/05 09:09 AM Re: AFCI in other countries??  
Wolfgang  Offline
Member
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 153
the very West of Germany


#58410 - 11/10/05 09:17 AM Re: AFCI in other countries??  
Mike Wescoatt  Offline
Member
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 161
Cedar City, Utah
I spent some time trying to decide if it was better in the General board or non-US board...
RCD stands for Residual Current Device.
I did't know it was an electro-mechanical device. Here our GFCI's sre controlled by a computer chip and sense the current usinf a biased current transformer torrid which also can tell if the nuteral is connected properly. I understood that RCD's were intended for life safety; is this true? Just that they have a different trip curve?
AFCI's work by sensing the shape of the current curve to tell when a sustained arc is taking place. Many AFCI's also have GFCI functions in them as well. We're required to install them in any circuit that serves a lighting or utility outlet in a bedroom in a dwelling. Not any other room, just bedrooms...


Mike Wescoatt

#58411 - 11/10/05 10:40 AM Re: AFCI in other countries??  
resqcapt19  Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,148
IL
Mike,
Quote
Many AFCI's also have GFCI functions in them as well.

They have a GFP function, not a GFCI function. The term GFCI is reserved for life safety with a 4-6 mA trip. The GFP part of the AFCI has a 30-50mA trip. It is my opinion that the GFP part of the AFCI, not the fancy "arc sensing" circuit, does most of the work in the AFCI device.
Don


Don(resqcapt19)

#58412 - 11/10/05 03:34 PM Re: AFCI in other countries??  
Mike Wescoatt  Offline
Member
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 161
Cedar City, Utah
Sorry for the confusion... Around here we call GFCI, GFI, GFP all GFCI. We specify "UL Class A" for personnell protection on circuits up to 50A and all others we call "Equipment GFCI Protection".


Mike Wescoatt

#58413 - 11/10/05 05:34 PM Re: AFCI in other countries??  
frank  Offline
Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 376
windsor ontario canada
The code for AFCI protection is the same here,just bedrooms.We probably have all the other devises you listed but group them into the GFCI category as well


#58414 - 11/10/05 06:31 PM Re: AFCI in other countries??  
Wolfgang  Offline
Member
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 153
the very West of Germany
In European power grids passive, electro-mechanical RCDs can do different jobs:

1. in so called "TT-systems" they are mandatory for the whole of the service. In Europe xformers can be pretty far away. TT means that xformer (always star point)ground electrode and your local ground electrode are not bonded. In this case a ground fault will almost never cause an important current to ground able to trip a breaker as the ground resistances will be too high. That's why RCDs are in this case integral part of the system (example: France 2 RCD in series (often 500mA/30mA).

2. Furthermore in any location with an increased danger of fire a 300mA is supposed to prevent fires. Here you have to understand that in Europe there is almost mandatorily an isolated ye/gr ground run alongside every hot wire. In actually Germany we mainly use cables not wires, but that differs. A melting isolation will create a ground contact before external isolation/(plastic!!)conduit is destroyed.

3. For additional protection of persons the same technical principle with a nominal maximum ground fault current of 30mA (Standard)or even 10mA is mandatory for bathrooms, garages , outside in one country, for everything in the next, this depends on local rules and pocos.

With regard to grid forms it is important to understand that the 230 V can either consist of 1 hot and 1 grounded conductor,

or of 1 hot and 1 one conductor only grounded at a xformer a mile away (not accepted as really grounded)

or just 2 hot wires (f.i. Belgium often).

This is why we do not really care about poles , as any of the both "active" conductors in a receptacle can be "not" cold. And therefore a detection of a "bad neutral" is not helpful at all.


#58415 - 11/12/05 10:46 AM Re: AFCI in other countries??  
pauluk  Offline
Member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,520
Norfolk, England
Here's a brief outline of modern RCD usage in the U.K., which includes a brief description of the trip levels commonly employed:
http://www.memonline.com/rcd1.html

30mA trip is generally the most sensitive used in a normal domestic environment here, and is now requried by our code for outside receptacles and for other outlets which are likely to be used to feed appliances used outdoors.

We have no equivalent to the AFCI, and thus far I've not seen even a mention that such things are under consideration here.



Member Spotlight
Lostazhell
Lostazhell
Bakersfield, CA (Originally Orange Co.)
Posts: 1,431
Joined: February 2004
Show All Member Profiles 
Featured:

2017 Master Electrician Exam Preparation Combos
2017 NEC Electrician
Exam Prep Combos:
Master / Journeyman

 

Shout Box
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0
Page Time: 0.021s Queries: 14 (0.004s) Memory: 0.8109 MB (Peak: 0.9833 MB) Zlib enabled. Server Time: 2017-12-15 10:18:51 UTC