1 members (Scott35),
235
guests, and
27
robots. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 200
Member
|
How about a shortened pathway for electricians to become electrical engineers? Putting the tools away and attending university fulltime for 4 or more years isn't an option for most of us working people. Makes just as much sense as putting the engineer through a reduced-length apprenticeship IMO.
I don't think 'journeyman' should be the end of the road.
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,876
Member
|
Sorry this thread got my goat.... Started looking up searches on related... Found this string of gems on another forum. http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=99415&page=3 (See thread for context.) Electrical engineers are not electricians, and vice versa. Hydraulic engineers are not plumbers. Metallurgists are not welders. Geotechnical engineers are not Cat drivers. Agricultural engineers are not farmers. Civil/Structural engineers are neither carpenters nor masons. Mechanical engineers are not machinists.
The trade skills are not necessarily a subset of the engineering skills. If you can do both, it means that you are fortunate enough to have two sets of skills, not that you're a rare example of a "real" engineer.
If you're an engineer on projects that involve such skills, you should understand what it takes to do them so that you don't design something unbuildable, but it doesn't mean you need to be able to physically build it yourself.
[This message has been edited by e57 (edited 05-15-2005).]
Mark Heller "Well - I oughta....." -Jackie Gleason
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,429
Member
|
"The trade skills are not necessarily a subset of the engineering skills."
For engineering positions in many industries, such as petro chemical, mining, and large electrical contracting firms, they are a required subset of skills, and they are not a rare breed at all, over the years most of these engineers, have moved into upper management positions.
Many electricians, go back to school and finish a degree program in engineering.
With our declining manufacturing base, more companies are looking for the employees that are dual trained, this trend is nothing new, the services have been doing this for years, with good results.
[This message has been edited by LK (edited 05-15-2005).]
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 794 Likes: 3
Member
|
Some of my experience of being an electrical engineer "systems archetect" for video intergrated circuits can be used for discussion here. In my world, I specify the overall structure of the functions of this intergrated circuit, but I leave it to specialists to design and build the actual silicon circuits of that intergrated circuit. This would be somewhat similar to my designing say a house. "I want the kitchen here, the dining room next to it here, bedrooms at the other end here, etc". And some details like, "I'd like 4 counter circuits in the kitchen, and this bedroom here will be my ham radio room and I'll need a 240V 15A outlet to power my transmitter in there." But leave it to the EC to take care of the detailed design of the electrical system per NEC but saying "use wire one step thicker than what the NEC says". I'd avoid "but that's not code, can't do it" type problems. I'd say what I want to be able to do and let the EC make it happen.
THus the lack of detail you see from engineers is partly the deligation of that task to the EC and partly to avoid arguements over code complience problems. "The kitchen is to have 2 fridges and a freezer, just make the appropriate electrical happen to code". Code things like the max number of breakers in a panel engineers are not likely to know about, thus they leave it to the electricians to figure out how to orginize the system to be code.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,429
Member
|
The PE is responsable for the design, the EC installs as designed, and in most cases, there are few problems, any good engineering firm has qualified engineers, that are well aware of code requirements, most of the problems come from poor communications with those working in the field.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 30
Member
|
wa2ise, If "delegation" is part of the reason for lack of detail from engineers, maybe you can elaborate on what some of the other reasons would be. It does not explain the multitude of omissions and outright mistakes that I have come across on plans. Quote: "The kitchen is to have two fridges and a freezer, just make the appropriate electrical happen to code". So it is now the electricians responsibility to figure out specs., locations etc. of this equipment? From my perspective delegation often looks alot like passing the buck. By the way I think electrical engineers should know about little details like the max. number of breakers allowed in a panel.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,803
Member
|
Interesting point by E57 on the loss of trade skills- many of which are caused by modern technology- parts previously made on site by an artisan are now churned out in plastic by a factory. BTW: The Coliseum in Rome was made of CONCRETE - that's why it's still there; the locals couldn't rob the stone out to build houses.
Wood work but can't!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,429
Member
|
Yes, e57 feels like a lot of us, back to the pure craft, and he brings out a good point on how the engineers have been churned out.
|
|
|
Posts: 57
Joined: August 2003
|
|
|
|