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#51039 04/19/05 09:55 PM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 276
trollog Offline OP
Just passed mine today! I'm on top of the world! For all you guys operating in CA, whats the mgmt at your shop doing about these exams? The owner at mine has been pushing us all HARD to get it behind us before the July deadline. There are still 3 left out of 12 at our ship left who haven't scheduled...

#51040 04/20/05 03:18 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,876
e57 Offline
Electrician certification program current counts at March 21, 2005
Applications to date 23,818
Exams authorized to date 24,513
Exams taken to date 15,201
Exams passed to date 12,702
Exams failed to date: 2,499

They need 60,000 more to pass to even think about trying to enforce this poorly written law!

Many contractors still don't even know about this law, nor do thier employees who have to take it. Many union members are not taking the test, although thier union wrote this law.

Could you imagine having several hundred thousand dollars in the pipe, and find out you have no labor? Which is the only reason to make sure your employees do take it. They loose a career, and you loose you everything.

It will be postponed again, as the numbers are not there. Nor would it be fair (Legal even) to allow seperate testing deadlines for spanish speaking, so it can not be enforced until they write a test in Spanish, (Not available until next year) or for that matter all the other languages out there. "1-800-call-ACLU"

This law is going to end in court, as there are groups out there waiting for class action on it. As all it is is a reading comprehention test. It does not make you an electrician. Being able to read a code book, is not half of it. IMO

This law is about taking over the industry though mandatory single point of entry apprenticeship. And the authors of this law lost that when the feds said no dice for any of the money that supports the many other apprenticeship programs out there in the state outside of our trade. Then they allowed non-union apprentiship programs. Now its just thorn in everyones side......

Just my opinion.

Anyway, reguardless of who pays for the test, employee, or employer, it is a tax write off on schedule C! [Linked Image]

Its the employees "license" to work, but the employers assurance against work stoppage through insufficiant available labor. Its hard enough now to find good people, nevermind fiding ones who have taken this test. (One must cultivate a field of labor.) So its a coin toss as to who should put out more on it.

Our shop paid for most of the tests and prep for them. Except for myself, who took it really early.

Mark Heller
"Well - I oughta....." -Jackie Gleason
#51041 04/20/05 02:34 PM
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 4,294
I think that I was the first non-union electrician in the State to pass this test.
That's been more than 2 years ago.

The time for excuses is over. This has been Public Knowledge for more than 5 years now.

I don't believe for a second that there are many contractors out there that don't know about this. That's just another BS excuse on the long, long list.
Any contractor with "several hundred thousand dollars in the pipe" out to have his head out where the sun shines enough to know about this.
Truth is, lots just want to continue to have "Foremen" with 2 yrs experience, and "Journeymen" that have been in the trade 6 months.

I don't agree with some of the parts of this law, but I follow laws as a matter of course that I don't fully agree with every day.

Just Maybe: Many people that are in the field working as journeyman electricians are incompetent and don't belong there in that capacity. Maybe that's why they have enacted this law in the first place.
(What a unique concept, huh??)
If those that have been trying so hard to find a "loophole" or "way out" had been educating/studying rather than squandering their time thinking up "reasons" why it's not fair to them, we'd be much further ahead as a whole.

Purely my opinion...S

We've discussed this quite a few times before, and my challenge still stands untouched.
Someone give just 1 valid reason why a qualified journeyman shouldn't take this test. No excuses, please.

[This message has been edited by electure (edited 04-20-2005).]

#51042 04/20/05 06:15 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,876
e57 Offline
I get e-mails all the time from people who just found out about this law by word of mouth while standing at a will-call counter, who have found my website. Some people have heard about it.... But don't know where to find information about it. They have never heard of the DAS, or DIR.

Did you know that thousands of people have gone out and gotten thier contracts license (C-10) thinking that was what they were supposed to do? The CSLB is swamped. Over the last two years, licensing is up 35%, many of those are electricians. The only contact for this from the CSLB, was a junk mail news letter side-bar.
( And, it is not the CSLB's responsibility to inform us of this! )

And the only contact from the DAS was about less than 6 months ago on another piece of junk mail.

Truth is that unless you knew where to look for information on this law over the last few years, you would never have found it. It's here:

Electure, you and I, and others here at ECN probhably have much more contact with 'others in our trade' than most. Most, have limited contact with people in every other trade, who have no idea about this. And the DAS has no contact with the trades outside of apprenticeship programs, which makes them a poor choice to be running something like this.

I guess we might know where the other 60,000 electricians are in 3 months.

Just Maybe: Many people that are in the field working as journeyman electricians are incompetent and don't belong there in that capacity.

I agree....

Mark Heller
"Well - I oughta....." -Jackie Gleason
#51043 04/20/05 11:58 PM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 92
As one of the 12,702 scholars who have passed this test, I would say that prospective employers do not seem to be very impressed. One comment, "Hmm". Another: my wife could pass it and she has trouble plugging in a light."
At one of our early morning job gatherings, I offered copies of EC and ECN to the various other "electricians". They were not interested. They are installers, not electricians. I put a lot of time, money and effort into passing this thing and am not sure it was worth the effort. The Spanish thing bothers me. The Code is written in English, so why should those who don't speak the language be given an exemption?

#51044 04/21/05 08:59 PM
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 4,294
The Code is written in English,

And also Spanish. One of our members has a copy in French! [Linked Image]

e57, Even though I'll agree we here at ECN have a tremendous resource for current events, I found out about this in '99.
ECN was just a "twinkle in Bill's eye" at that time.
Also, exams ]are all geared up and going in Spanish.

Thousands of accidental new electrical contractors because of this? I'd like to see some supporting statistics, but I sure can't find them. [Linked Image]

#51045 04/21/05 10:30 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,876
e57 Offline
From: Parsley, Jonathan []
Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 12:09 PM
To: Mark A. Heller
Subject: RE: Major rise in C-10 applications this year?

Here are some statistics regarding C-10 Electrical license applications:

FY 2000-2001: 1,916

FY 2001-2002: 2,197

FY 2002-2003: 2,566

These are the counts within fiscal year of application submission. This is public information, so you may use these statistics.

Any other questions, please let me know.

Jonathan Parsley

Information Officer

Contractors State License Board

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark A. Heller []
Sent: Monday, May 03, 2004 10:45 PM
To: Parsley, Jonathan
Subject: Major rise in C-10 applications this year?

Mr. Parsely,

I am not sure of whom to direct this to, but yours is the only e-mail available to be found for the CSLB. However you may be able to help me find out some information about the current situation with licensing of C-10 Electrical Contractors.

I operate at an individual grassroots level for advocacy and education on the Electrician Certification Program that passed a few years ago. (Soon to be implemented.) This requires every Employee of C-10 Electrical Contractors to be certified by the DIR / DAS by January 1, 2005. I believe, and you can confirm this. That Electricians have been flooding into the CSLB for Contractors Licenses, instead of going through the DAS for the Electrician Certification Program.

I have been speaking to many Electricians that have been confused about this program, and believe that they need to obtain their Contractors License, as they have been misinformed about the Electrician Certification Program. The DAS has not actively informed the holders of C-10 licenses about this Program, and many in the Electrical Trade have no idea that this regulation exists. As there has been absolutely NO outreach, on the part of the DAS to holders of C-10 Licenses. (which they are mandated to do.*) And, only a minor mention of the Program in a CSLB Newsletter last Spring. (Not that it’s the CSLB’s responsibility to do the work of the DAS!)

Anyway, my question is…….. Has there been a major rise in C-10 applications this year?

If you choose to answer this question, I’ll keep the source confidential if you like.

Mark Heller
[web-site link removed]

(* I was later corrected about this, the DAS is not really required to tell you anything!)

The 2004 numbers should be out by now.... I talked to this person on the phone later, and the numbers had not been compiled, as they were trying to get out of a major back-log of applications and testing, as they had far surpassed the numbers from the year before. (And some buget cuts from Arnie didn't help. Its rumored he wants to get rid of the CSLB. Thats a hoot!)

And, apparently there are "translation problems" with the spanish test, or at least that was the excuse I got from the DAS about having seperate test deadlines. They have a test, but it has issues.... Maybe they translated english questions, instead of taking them directly from the Spanish NEC. One person told me it was like Spanglish.

Electure, I too believe some sort of testing, or certification should be required. I advocate against this law, but suggest everyone go ahead and take the test, for thier own protection. To do otherwise would put your career at risk. That said, some of the people I know who have passed this test, I would be weary of leaving on a job by themselves....

That said, could you answer this question.

What do you think about the management, and implimentation of this nearly 6 year old law so far?

From what I can tell.... A bunch of $100 per hour paid consultants who like to meet up at hotels on our dime, and milk this for what its worth to them. As there certainly is not a whole lot of "action" over at the State Building here in SF where thier office is. With this type of progress from THEM, not the guys out here with tools in thier hands, we can expect this law to be implimented sometime in 2010, at the rate they are going. And it seems the Union has all but abandon this, as it is really apparent thier members have stopped taking it.

[This message has been edited by e57 (edited 04-22-2005).]

Mark Heller
"Well - I oughta....." -Jackie Gleason
#51046 04/21/05 11:12 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 167
They are the biggest bunch of morons and losers I've ever heard of.

Plenty of working programs in other states to model this after, but that would make too much sense.

Earlier this year they were in denial of the the 2004 CEC going into effect. (edit CEC)

So, no word of when the test is going to switch to the 2002 NEC.

SO, they can't make a decent spanish test. Doesn't really matter, I don't think they will be able to find any spanish NEC's to provide at the test. At least not on the 1999.

Originally, there was not going to be a spanish or any other language test. I "heard" that someone filed suit against them for not having it available.

Still, I have hope that in the long run the continuing education required for the renewal will have a positive effect on the trade.

[This message has been edited by sandsnow (edited 04-21-2005).]

Larry LeVoir
City of Irvine, CA
#51047 04/22/05 03:49 PM
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 4,294
What do you think about the management, and implimentation of this nearly 6 year old law so far?

So far it's been an ongoing cluster of blunders by a bunch of nincompoops, and a ridiculous propaganda/disinformation campaign from both pro and anti factions alike. It's not unlike our Fish and Game regulations and most other laws in this respect.
Mark, I agree with you in many ways, but believe you're an extremist with an agenda.

Did you know that thousands of people have gone out and gotten thier contracts license (C-10) thinking that was what they were supposed to do?

Are you using some kind of Fuzzy Math? Using your figures.
There were a total of 281 more applications in the year following the passing of the law than there were in the preceding year. If you factor in the previous year's increase and growth the number is 88
I'm not too alarmed by this. There are 35 Million people in the State, and the population is growing by about 1/2 million anually.
I've heard of guys wanting to take the C-10 test because they heard it's easier than the Cert Exam (it is, too, btw), but not for the reasons you've given.

You've even previously claimed that there are 20,000 electricians in your area alonethat were "secretly" certified, and were waiting to "come out of hiding and take all the work" when this law went into effect?
(I hope you've abandoned that one)

Yes, the fat cats at CAC have wasted lots of taxpayer money. Quarterly meetings in Palm Springs and overlooking Mission Bay in San Diego. The last 2 meetings regarding this though were held 2-25-05 in LA's State Building, and 2-22-05 in the Hiram Johnson State Building, a couple of miles from your house in SF.

My point through all of this is only that it IS. The same as you, I suggest everybody get off their tails and get certified. The rest will play out regardless of whether you do or not. For myself, I just prefer the peace of mind knowing that my bases are covered.
Peace [Linked Image]

#51048 04/22/05 09:00 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,876
e57 Offline
Electure, "extremist with an agenda", thats a little strong... Agenda, yes, extremist no. (I'm far from climbing a tower with a rifle if thats what you mean.) Angry, yes, because it affects my future, (many others too.) and there are still too many unanswered questions. Early on, I saw it as a conspiracy, as time goes on, I have come to the realization, that the DAS is just 'winging it'. They haven't a clue what they are doing, or what to do next.

The agenda is to shed some light on a shadey subject. And I am by no means alone in that thinking.

You've even previously claimed that there are 20,000 electricians in your area alonethat were "secretly" certified, and were waiting to "come out of hiding and take all the work" when this law went into effect?
(I hope you've abandoned that one)
That came from the mouth of an angry IBEW Force Certification Rep. I ran into one day. Another guy with him was eager to confidently comfirm it too. A horrifying concept seeing that the DAS published numbers were only about 3-4000 at the time, with the then deadline only a few months away. Took a month or so to get an answer from the DAS on it. They said no.... At the time it would have explained a lot! But they were pulling my leg, I hope.... Won't really know until all the cows are counted... When-ever that day is? 3 months? 3 years?

Mark Heller
"Well - I oughta....." -Jackie Gleason
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