ECN Forum Forums General Topics of the Trade General Discussion Area Q on how best to pre-twist solid conductors

Is opening a j box or can a violation? Technically the wires and wirenuts are not live exposed parts so it should be OK. This is what I am refering to.

I like your thinking, I have thought about the same thing.

Technically IMO you are correct, however OSHA inspectors are typically going to fine first ask questions later.

Have a great (and safe) week.

Bob

iwire, the building im refering to wasbuilt in 1927, part 1 and 2 of the renovation took 4 years. much of the rest of the 6 part job was still occupied by gover. employees. there are endless circuits and endless associated panels the crossovers are numerous from one part of the building to another. you werent there so you cant convince me that a circuit tracer and 10 hours labor with a circuit tracer with a choice of 10 or more panels located in multiple panel rooms (and possibly from floor to floor is not an option. the floors are terrazo and the walls are terracotta with plaster.

So rizer what is it you are telling me?

That it is good to work live?

That if something is inconvenient you can forget about safety rules?

If you are in charge of any employees and are telling them they have to work live you are really behind the times.

Have you taken any OSHA classes or electrical safety courses?

iwire. what im saying is that there are certain instances where it is unavoidable thats all. i have6 juice filling lines putting out 1000 cartons a minute . line 2 is being demoed while the other 5 lines are to remain operationsl. the cp for this area contains some 500 wires 4 of which are 120v contrl pwr for some of line 2. the 4 2amp fuses feeding these crts are fed to multiple terminal blocks deriving there power from the same breaker. do i carefully unscew the term, blk and remove the fed im after or do i schedual a shut down of carton filling to remove 4 control power circuits. time is money and as an electrician the job carries with it inherant risks which are sometimes un avoidable. i follow ppe and osha rules 99.9% of the time but the.01 in this trade is part of the job.

Wow. All I wanted to know was how better to achieve my goal. to get a better pre-twist. What a can of worms. That being said, I have found alot better success after trying some of these methods to get all the conductors to twist at the same time. Thanx, Brian

... Ok, I'll jump in here,...if I have to splice,say..4 or 5 solid/stranded #12's,I strip a good inch or so off,then I'll hand twist 2 conductors to get the "spiral" going, then add each additional conductor,one at a time,watching the "shoulder" carefully so that all the wire's insulation is even,then twist with linesmans..it usually works nicely,and I cut off the excess squarely,and put on my wire nut..I find this ensures a good bond,and the spiral is usually continuous..
...And yes,I do work live if I have to,I was trained to do so,although I instruct my guys to work dead if possible..it's not only a safety issue,but an economic one as well,they will work more quickly,and efficiently if they're not preoccupied with working live..
Russ

[This message has been edited by Attic Rat (edited 04-26-2004).]

Sorry, I know we're all over the place on this thread, but as to working live saving time and money: rizer, I don't doubt your knowlege and skill, but I think your example on the production line is good one to throw some scenarios where that could back fire on someone. An accidental short (besides the obvious potential for burns, loss of eyesite from moltent metal etc.) can cost more than a scheduled shut down. Sometimes unscheduled shutdowns are more expensive, especially if the line requires an orderly shutdown. I was told of an AL rolling mill in this area that burned to the ground not too long ago because of a 277 lighting circuit that shorted to ground when an electrician was screwing a 1900 blank back on. Well it turned out that the ground fault detector on the main service was never calibrated correctly, shutting the who building down. One particular part of the line required an orderly shutdown, and that's what sent the whole building ablaze.

Obviously there are many screw-ups that contributed to the tragedy, not to say killing the circuit, pinching the wire and then turning it on into a ground fault would have had any other result. Just realize (and I am not saying this directly to you rizer) than when we think we are saving money, we're really just throwing dice. Even though the dice normally do come up in our favor and it does save money, there is that once in a [blank]-(hundred, thousand, million??) that it could cost dearly.

jps, i knew when i wrote saving money i would regret it. we wear safety glasses 100% of the time and were a face shield when working hot (as well as gloves, rubber mat). as i said this was a 2 amp fuse, and yes im aware how much amperage it takes to stop your heart for those of you about to jump on the " 2 amp"line. i dont condone or suggest others work circuits live. as far as the 1900 cover: wow, huh? but i fail to see what the point is: working a live circuit vs. a gr fault set incorrectly? i guess we should send every one home accept the maintenance crew that would have to bring back up the 5 filling lines at 3 hours each and the lye-out crew huh! you really think there going to send 40 odd people home for this. remember 2 amp fuse. this plant has been making juice for some 40 years the number of wires is into the millions and unfortunately its not always possible to determine what wires go where. the specs are set in stone about labling and prints being up to date but not all formen are consciencious enough to do there job correctly. i apologize for digressing on this issue and the original question, this will be my last post .

OK Rizer your right.