ECN Forum Forums General Topics of the Trade General Discussion Area Why? Is this happening in your work place?

Guys....I can dig everything said. I wish that I had an answer to this problem. I can only offer this. As long as money is the driving force behind the "pace" of the construction industry, this problem will always exist. That said. I think it is safe to say that this problem will always exist in some form. It would be easy to say that companies should "foot the bill" to train their people. The fact is....they should shoulder some of the cost of training. But, as we all know, some (or many) companies don't. You may ask, "Where are headed with this Doc?" In my opinion, we (the individual) must take matters into our hands, and train ourselves by way apprenticeship programs, junior colleges, ECN, etc.
I work for a company that doesn't train their people. I came from a background of extensive training. For quite some time, I felt sorry for our untrained workers. Then something happened. I found out that many of our employees didn't want submit themselves to training. They didn't want to do the things necessary to be trained. Old Doc quit feeling sorry for those guys. I don't feel guilty because I'm trained, and they aren't.
I do try to help those who want to be trained. To all you apprentices out there, that are being "used and abused", hang in, and stay the course. The old saying, "This too shall pass" is true. I don't want this post to sound like I'm "in the same corner" as these companies. I just believe that the choice is ours, and we must choose to invest in our own education and training.

It's happening everywhere,
Doc

My helper Jimmy and I have a symbiotic relationship. I agree to teach him as much as he can absorb, and he agrees to give me his best effort.

So far I think he is pleased... I know I am.

I was lucky to have a mentor that cared, I suppose... I intend to uphold the tradition.

What's the point of doing an apprenticeship, if you aren't learning anything, it's the apprentice and the trade later on that suffers in the end!.
Apprentices are there to be trained, we've all done it(or should have), get with it!

Mentoring and apprenticeship are great opportunities but if it's possible to set some structure (ground rules)in place, the value can be increased.

Like Doc said, a person has to want to learn and be willing and able to be trained. And as many of you have noted, a mentor has to be willing to teach and evidence shows that those who aren't willing are usually either trying to cover for their own ineptitude or they're afraid that the trainee is a bright guy who'll take the work away if he really catches on.

So, either party can launch the 'formalizing' of the training path. Start by stating what you'd like to learn, that you think the person you're speaking with does work that appears to be correct, done with integrity and care, etc., and you're wondering if they would be willing to teach you and you'd be willing/able to assist as you learn. I know that's easier said than done in many cases but the mentoring program where I work provided a great way to formalize without being very restrictive. Either party can approach the other and if the request is well received and followed through, both people can see some benefits.

To not train others can be a shameful waste of the opportunity and yet I know it happens all the time. To have shoddy work be the standard that's offered is absurd especially when there must be hard-working, willing-to-learn folks out there looking for a way to earn their keep.

In Canada the provinces (equivalent to states) administer the apprenticeship system.

The Apprentice, the Employer, and the Apprenticeship Division enter into a three way contract, each having certain obligations.

To make a long story short, the employer agrees to release the apprentice for 30 days (a six-week period) of in-school training each year, for the "knowledge component" and take him/her back if the work still exists.
The in-school training is done in the Community Colleges, and is paid for by the taxpayers. I recently retired after 28 years instucting in this program.

The employer's journeyman who directly supervises the apprentice is responsible for "rating" the apprentice's skill development on the job. The ratings are periodically recorded in a little book carried by the apprentice.

Each "skill" (example - Install and maintain single-phase motors) is rated at a 1, 2, or 3 level.
1 = Has been exposed to the skill.
2 = Can perform the skill with assistance and supervision.
3 = Can perform the skill without assistance or supervision.

Apprentices are required to pass a test after each of 8 "Sections" of the in-school program is completed, and a final Inter-Provincial Exam, which is recognized country wide (in all provinces).

Apprentices must also have a certain combination of skill ratings to write the IP exam.

I'm interested in how the Apprenticeship program operates in the USA. Are there any similarities? Major differences?

Ed

Hello from South Dakota!!

I have always taken the aproach to learn all that I can. The more you know the better you are at what you do.
I have also made myself available to all of my apprentices after work (espeacially on residential, where the pace is too fast during work)to answer questions and show them faster ways to do their jobs.
I have always taken responsibility for my apprentices and their growth. The boss never has. I just feel that as their J-Man I should do all that I can. And it gives me great pride in knowing that all the guys I have trained are now J-Men too!

Jon

We spend a lot of time training. As a journeyman I feel it's part of my job responsiblity to train my apprentice, just as my boss trained me.

It makes the crews more efficient and raises the quality level of our product. This all helps the company make more $$'s.

FWIW we have had very few people quit over the years and none have quit to work for the competition.

GJ

Training where I am can be a weird thing. My company is about 80% Hispanic (mainly from Honduras and El Salvador), with the remainder being about 5% black, and 10% White. I am Scotch (2nd generation US) and so am in the 2nd smallest minority of the company (about 70-75 men in total). To many of the guys, they have seemed to decide that they can not take on an apprenticeship due to the language barrier, despite the fact that many of them are actually quite skilled in instillation (some more so than me, much to my chagrin but I don’t let them know, makes for embarrassing situations when the come up with a much better idea than my own J).

Now to combat this, the owner (may he rule divine ) of the company is offering free English classes at the shop after work, but for some reason the only guys coming to the classes are already Foreman, or have large responsibility for a particular section of a large commercial job (Low Voltage, Fire Alarm, etc.)!

So it seems to me that there is some line that is drawn between those who want to be trained (and are actively getting said training) and those that are happy with being the guy with the broom cleaning up pieces of MC and other debris, and a much smaller amount who want to get ahead!

Where is the line between wanting to be trained and the company not having the time to properly train you due to a rush job, and the fact that some people don’t want the training despite the fact that it is being offered? Comments? Experiences the same or very different?

From an apprentice running a job through opportunity.

Pete


[This message has been edited by Webmaster (edited 02-22-2003).]

Great responses! I am doing great at my company. Yet, the apprentice that was being abused was fired today! This is a sad day! How the heck can someone ever learn anything, if they are not given the opportunity to learn. This guy had no real idea on how to do anything, but he was pushed-to the wolves, and was eaten alive! This is wrong in my eyes, because it destroys the individual moral intent, and want for the trade. It gives the trade a bad name, and leaves an ill taste in the mouth of those who seek understanding of what they long to create as a future. Yes, it's our responsibility to self learn portions of the trade. But the simple fact remains: It is the J-mans responsibility to explain the trade-applying code when necessary!

The first electrician I worked for was very cheap and always was in a rush to get work done. He couldn't make money if we weren't hustling. He would cut corners where ever he could to wind up being penny wise and pound foolish. The best part about working for him was that he didn't want to look in the code book anymore. If we got to a job that was difficult, he made me look up the answer. Then he would ask me what to do. That made me learn how to read the code book. I learned where thing were in the code book and why they were there. When I had men, I needed to be quick also, but I told my men that I would be more than happy to go over any questions that they had about the code. Then the shoe was on the other foot. The would love to hear me preach and teach the code on my time, but the never could/would stay a few minutes late to learn new codes. Of the many employees I had, 3 of them got their contractors license. I was proud of those guys.