ECN Electrical Forum - Discussion Forums for Electricians, Inspectors and Related Professionals
ECN Shout Chat
Top Posters(30 Days)
Potseal 11
Recent Posts
Permit Snafus...AHJs and Contractors Jump in
by HotLine1. 04/29/17 10:26 AM
201 volt equipment?
by bigpapa. 04/29/17 12:15 AM
Schneider LC1D09
by jraef. 04/28/17 11:05 PM
Electrode boilers question
by annemarie1. 04/27/17 01:40 PM
Why cables look like they do
by LongRunner. 04/26/17 09:36 AM
New in the Gallery:
SE cable question
Popular Topics(Views)
234,941 Are you busy
169,769 Re: Forum
162,980 Need opinion
Who's Online Now
1 registered members (mbhydro), 88 guests, and 9 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3
#216990 - 03/26/16 02:14 AM 3 phase star heater confusion  
johno12345  Offline
Member
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 96
United Kingdom
Hello, its been a while!

I have a heat pump with a 6kW 3ph star electric accessory heater

I thought it wasn't working properly, and to cut a long story short, I clamped the terminals, and got a load reading on only one phase.

I have drawn it out, to try and make sense of it. I have a theory as to why its working as it is, but ill get to that in a later post.

[Linked Image]


I took my time, I hurried up, The choice was mine, I didn't think enough

Work Gear for Electricians and the Trades

#216991 - 03/26/16 06:58 AM Re: 3 phase star heater confusion [Re: johno12345]  
geoff in UK  Offline
Member
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 181
UK
The only way I can see those readings occurring is if heater 1 is open circuit but with an earth fault at the right hand end. Heater 3 must also be o/c or have no supply.


#216992 - 03/26/16 12:27 PM Re: 3 phase star heater confusion [Re: johno12345]  
ghost307  Offline
Member
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 900
Chicago Illinois USA
The only way that those amperage readings make any sense to me is if HEAT3 (or LS3) is open and HEAT1 is shorted to ground on the line side.
That would leave HEAT2 as the only working element; but it's using the metal housing as the return path instead of being routed to L1 via the HEAT1 coil.


Ghost307

#216993 - 03/26/16 12:38 PM Re: 3 phase star heater confusion [Re: johno12345]  
johno12345  Offline
Member
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 96
United Kingdom
that's what I think is happening too. (its what I alluded to in the first post)

I don't think it would operate any cpd either. I didn't get a shock touching the case of the unit. It's still a safety issue though.

woulnt this happen if any element went down to ground though, and not operate the cpd? The only way to protect it would be to install a RCBO/RCD (GFI)


I took my time, I hurried up, The choice was mine, I didn't think enough

#216994 - 03/26/16 05:17 PM Re: 3 phase star heater confusion [Re: johno12345]  
ghost307  Offline
Member
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 900
Chicago Illinois USA
The breaker won't trip until it sees more current than it's rated at. Depending on where the short is the current value on any given phase may not get high enough.

A GFI might do the trick; but only if the return current isn't somehow coming back on one of the phase legs.
If this was something expensive I'd suggest a protective relay that would operate if the current on the 3 legs differ from one another.


Ghost307

#216995 - 03/26/16 05:34 PM Re: 3 phase star heater confusion [Re: johno12345]  
johno12345  Offline
Member
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 96
United Kingdom
its not something expensive, its just a heat pump with the accessory heater.

I can understand how it's all working as it is, it just sounds a bit alarming

it must be a fairly common failure mode for these things


I took my time, I hurried up, The choice was mine, I didn't think enough

#216996 - 03/26/16 09:35 PM Re: 3 phase star heater confusion [Re: johno12345]  
gfretwell  Offline


Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,069
Estero,Fl,usa
My guess is it started with the ground fault on heater 1, that one blew along with #3 because now they are seeing 120v instead of 104v and #2 is living on borrowed time.

What is the name plate power consumption? 3KW?

[Linked Image]


Greg Fretwell

#216997 - 03/26/16 10:24 PM Re: 3 phase star heater confusion [Re: johno12345]  
johno12345  Offline
Member
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 96
United Kingdom
6.9kW, and its 400v between phases, so if the earth fault is where you have drawn it, heater 2 is seeing 230v, rather than 400


I took my time, I hurried up, The choice was mine, I didn't think enough

#216998 - 03/26/16 10:56 PM Re: 3 phase star heater confusion [Re: johno12345]  
gfretwell  Offline


Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,069
Estero,Fl,usa
The heaters are in series so the phase to phase voltage is split between them. Unfortunately I am still having the numbers to come out right with this calculator.
https://www.watlow.com/reference/tools/3phase.cfm


[Linked Image]


Greg Fretwell

#216999 - 03/27/16 12:25 PM Re: 3 phase star heater confusion [Re: gfretwell]  
LarryC  Offline
Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 783
Winchester, NH, US
Greg,

Since there is no contactor for the third phase, they may be using a corner grounded delta. In that case, the heating element will see the full 400 V across it and the current will be approximately double of the calculated. That comes a bit closer to the measured values.


Page 1 of 3 1 2 3

Member Spotlight
Attic Rat
Attic Rat
Bergen Co.,N.J. USA
Posts: 524
Joined: December 2003
Show All Member Profiles 
Featured:

2017 NEC and Related
2017 NEC
Now Available!

Shout Box
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0
Page Time: 0.017s Queries: 16 (0.003s) Memory: 0.8208 MB (Peak: 1.0042 MB) Zlib enabled. Server Time: 2017-04-29 17:29:35 UTC