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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 7,381
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Larry:

IMHO, the safety consultant may be trying to justify his time/fee.

Qualified people working on a machine under testing/debug require access.

The print plant i worked in, had a safety guy who would measure the barrier to equipment clearance (space) and bust chops for an inch or two! The production manager 'relocated' the safety guy down to shipping area!

I used to try to maintain 44" clear on my side of the barrier. We used 5' high welding screens and had enough of them to block a 52' RotoPress.



John
Arc Flash PPE Clothing, LOTO & Insulated Tools
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,233
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When I went in front of OSHA to defend my customer, the gentleman from OSHA told me that in general, electricians are one of the more safety orientated groups out there. The worst groups were excavators and siding people. Now this was back in the late'80's that I did this, so I don't know if anything has changed since then. Also I was told that the OSHA inspectors hit you with huge fines because the inspector gets a chunk of that fine.

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 599
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JBD Offline
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Originally Posted by renosteinke
70E wants full moon suit and testing to ensure power is off. 70E does not recognize any design element that will allow a test probe yet exclude a finger. 70E wants arc-flash calcs and documented selective co-ordination at ever step, from the PoCo drop to the last outlet. 70E completely disregards the safety of control circuits, since the same cabinet has 'power circuits' in it as well.


This is so blatantly wrong it is hilarious, and leads me to the conclusion that you should not be taken seriously.

NFPA70E simply says to wear the appropriate PPE for whatever task you are performing.
NFPA70E clearly requires you to perform a Risk Analysis as part of determining the appropriate PPE.
The main point of NFPA70E is for an employer to produce a Safe Work Practices program for their employees.

Do people mis-quote and mis-apply MFPA70E - absolutely they do. Do bullies (e.g ignorant OSHA inspectors) abuse their power - again absolutely.

Should we get rid of any standard that is misued by some one?

Joined: Jan 2005
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JBD, I appreciate your opinion. Alas, I have been around this bush many times, and my comments stand. Frequent readers of this forum are well aware of my opposition to both OSHA and 70E.

Open any industrial control panel, and there is both low-voltage control wiring and the full-voltage power circuit. Thus, the operator who opens the cabinet, for any reason, is required to don PPE until after all accessible live parts are proven to be dead.

"PPE" depends upon the arc-flash rating, or defaults to the 'worst case' table in 70E. Most any company selling PPE will gladly demonstrate how 70E requires you to buy lots of stuff from them, even is all you have are 240 circuits of 100 amps or less.

"Exposed" live parts are anything that can be reached, even if only with a probe. 70E makes no allowance at all for insulated tools or protected probes, or that the live parts are not associated with your task.

The 70E rules apply whatever the reason for opening the panel - even if it is opened for something as mundane as changing a VFD setting. Heaven forbid you're thinking of doing something like checking the fuses!

Heck, the 70E requirements apply when you're racking in a breaker or snapping a disconnect on to a bus duct - Full PPE until proven dead - despite the fact the equipment was originally designed to let you perform your task with nearly zero chance of your contacting a 'live' part.

Joined: Jul 2001
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JBD Offline
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Originally Posted by renosteinke
JBD, I appreciate your opinion. Alas, I have been around this bush many times, and my comments stand. Frequent readers of this forum are well aware of my opposition to both OSHA and 70E.

Open any industrial control panel, and there is both low-voltage control wiring and the full-voltage power circuit. Thus, the operator who opens the cabinet, for any reason, is required to don PPE until after all accessible live parts are proven to be dead.

"PPE" depends upon the arc-flash rating, or defaults to the 'worst case' table in 70E. Most any company selling PPE will gladly demonstrate how 70E requires you to buy lots of stuff from them, even is all you have are 240 circuits of 100 amps or less.

"Exposed" live parts are anything that can be reached, even if only with a probe. 70E makes no allowance at all for insulated tools or protected probes, or that the live parts are not associated with your task.

The 70E rules apply whatever the reason for opening the panel - even if it is opened for something as mundane as changing a VFD setting. Heaven forbid you're thinking of doing something like checking the fuses!

Heck, the 70E requirements apply when you're racking in a breaker or snapping a disconnect on to a bus duct - Full PPE until proven dead - despite the fact the equipment was originally designed to let you perform your task with nearly zero chance of your contacting a 'live' part.

I have been around, about the same amount of time as you.
My experience is that 70E can be implemented with out the level of 'pain' you consistently describe.

Almost every statement you make is based on how people you have interacted with are implementing codes, not on the codes themselves.

The vast majority (probably >96%)of machine panel locations I have evaluated, over the past 8 years are <1.2 calm/cm². Ny required PPE is definitely more in the area of street clothes than it is moon suit.

Why are you listening to the guys who sell PPE to tell you how much you need? Do you do the same with insurance?

There is nothing in NFPA70E that says exposed means 'even being able to be reached by a probe'. The 70E definition of exposed actually uses the phrase "inadvertently touched". There is an exception to 130.2 that says if a disconnect switch has been properly used to establish a safe working condition, then the equipment feeding that disconnect does not need to be de-energized. This allows live line side connections, if a risk assessment has been done and the task is found to be acceptable.

Work permits are about documenting the hazard, and assessing the risk. 70E 130.3(A) says 'specific practices shall be consistent with the nature of the risk'.

It is too bad, too many people skim through standards and then create and enforce unreasonable interpretations. There have not been enough precedent setting cases for the level of paranoia we see concerning implementation of 70E. Almost all of the actual judgements have been for almost blatant disregard of the standard and not for simple mis-application of it.

35 years ago I sold my first plug-on bus duct, even at that time the legal wording of the instructions said to de-energize the bus before installing/removing devices. The sales literature talked about the inherent safety features of 200A and smaller devices (e.g. interlocked to prevent installation when On), but the instructions still said shut it down.


Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,392
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On one larger job the poco sparked up a rather large service for us, {8' switchgear, all Eframe breakers} and called me to turn it all on

So i doned my entire arc suit to go and meet them, when i arrived the poco rep (a man of some serious tenure) said "I've never seen an electrician in one of those!"

~S~

Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,392
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Quote
Why are you listening to the guys who sell PPE to tell you how much you need?


i really have a thing about salesfolks , they're usually biased, and leave out a lot of pertinent info because of it

~S~

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