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harold endean #202497 08/05/11 02:10 AM
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The GFCI pretty much eliminates that "noodle" problem in any circuits near the pool. I GFCI every circuit that leaves the house, even the things like luminaires that don't need it.
The code will catch up them soon anyway.

As long as everything is bonded together, it really doesn't make much difference what potential you are sitting at, since everything else is right there with you. That is why we have all of those rules in 680.26


Greg Fretwell
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harold endean #202505 08/05/11 12:38 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
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Hey it's my B-Day, just got a "Happy Birthday" greeting from the ECN. Thank You whomever sent it.

As for this issue there is a TIA that came out in March of this year and it says:

680.42(B) Bonding. Bonding by metal-to-metal mounting on a common frame or base shall be permitted.
Exception No. 1: The metal bands or hoops used to secure wooden staves shall not be required to be bonded as required in 680.26.
Exception No. 2: A listed self-contained spa or hot tub that meets all of the following conditions shall not be required to have
equipotential bonding of perimeter surfaces installed as required in 680.26(B)(2):
(1) Is installed in accordance with manufacturer’s instructions on or above grade.
(2) The vertical measurement from all permanent perimeter surfaces within 30 horizontal inches (76 cm) of the spa to the top
rim of the spa is greater than 28 inches (71 cm).
Informational Note: For further information regarding the grounding and bonding requirements for self-contained spas and hot
tubs, see ANSI/UL 1563 – 2009, Standard for Electric Spas, Equipment Assemblies, and Associated Equipment.


George Little
gfretwell #202516 08/06/11 09:33 AM
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,392
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Originally Posted by gfretwell
The GFCI pretty much eliminates that "noodle" problem in any circuits near the pool. I GFCI every circuit that leaves the house, even the things like luminaires that don't need it.
The code will catch up them soon anyway.

As long as everything is bonded together, it really doesn't make much difference what potential you are sitting at, since everything else is right there with you. That is why we have all of those rules in 680.26


I'm also big on GFCI's Greg. But the practical application in areas lousy with objectionable currents due to over zealous grounding has been a problem for me

~S~

George Little #202517 08/06/11 09:34 AM
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,392
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Member
Originally Posted by George Little
Hey it's my B-Day, just got a "Happy Birthday" greeting from the ECN. Thank You whomever sent it.

As for this issue there is a TIA that came out in March of this year and it says:

680.42(B) Bonding. Bonding by metal-to-metal mounting on a common frame or base shall be permitted.
Exception No. 1: The metal bands or hoops used to secure wooden staves shall not be required to be bonded as required in 680.26.
Exception No. 2: A listed self-contained spa or hot tub that meets all of the following conditions shall not be required to have
equipotential bonding of perimeter surfaces installed as required in 680.26(B)(2):
(1) Is installed in accordance with manufacturer’s instructions on or above grade.
(2) The vertical measurement from all permanent perimeter surfaces within 30 horizontal inches (76 cm) of the spa to the top
rim of the spa is greater than 28 inches (71 cm).
Informational Note: For further information regarding the grounding and bonding requirements for self-contained spas and hot
tubs, see ANSI/UL 1563 – 2009, Standard for Electric Spas, Equipment Assemblies, and Associated Equipment.


bravo!

~S~

harold endean #202518 08/06/11 01:07 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
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How can "over zealous grounding" cause objectionable currents as long as you are not regrounding the neutral somewhere and a GFCI pretty much eliminates that anywhere on the load side of the device.

For the purposes of this discussion we really should be saying "bonding" though.


Greg Fretwell
harold endean #202524 08/08/11 09:39 AM
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,233
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Happy birthday George!

harold endean #202525 08/08/11 09:41 AM
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,233
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Greg,

OK, we are all in favor of safety and grounding and GFCI. However what would putting a #8 bonding wire under a wooden deck really do for safety?

harold endean #202529 08/08/11 01:17 PM
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I don't think I would bond a wooden/plastic wood deck, nor would I make an installer do it. 90-4 swings both ways.


Greg Fretwell
harold endean #202550 08/09/11 09:51 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 7,381
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Greg:

I agree with you 100% on the above.

On this subject, an interesting question this AM ."The tub is only 2' from the exterior wall of the house, can I cut the mat, or must the tub be moved"? Followed by....."do I have to install a 'bond' on/under the cedar shakes"?? Ya gotta love it!



John
gfretwell #202554 08/09/11 10:16 PM
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,392
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Originally Posted by gfretwell
How can "over zealous grounding" cause objectionable currents as long as you are not regrounding the neutral somewhere and a GFCI pretty much eliminates that anywhere on the load side of the device.

For the purposes of this discussion we really should be saying "bonding" though.


because contrary to the doctrine , the earth itself can be a return path Greg, doesn't mean the Hot tub is the culprit, just the victim ~S~

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