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Joined: Oct 2000
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Amazing the hatred Ms. Rand inspires in some, and the desire to attack the messenger, rather than the message. I'm a bit thrown off by the fancy words in a couple posts; "Atlas Shrugged" is reserved for those of us limited to plain, literate English.


Randism is easily explained Reno, it's current revival is fueled by simple human greed , which has grown popular in our society's fiscal snafu right now. Her writings insist on a stance of self made men without government oversight, operating in an open market, where any such restraint applied is painted socialist.

This is what is commonly refered to as Libertopia, an ideology if applied to the electrical trade would mean no licensure, permits, NEC, NFPA, IAEI, OSHA, EPA, inspections, inspectors, etc. This would , in essesnce, be survival of the fittest anarchy. I'll go out on a limb and claim it'd fall on it's face fairly quick





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Another irony- one that has to be experienced to be appreciated- is the contrast between Reno, and my current area, near the Missouri bootheel.

At first the two cannot be more different: an involved permit process with multiple fees, vs. a near absence of permitting and inspections.

This may be heresy, but I fail to find any substantial difference in the quality or safety of the work I've seen, comparing the two areas.

Of course, the current situation -where the Reno area has essentially closed down their building departments, and filled the functions with park department personnel- helps to confirm that the REAL reasons for codes lie in control and revenue, rather than a concern for safety.


Your point is well taken, in that a capitalist system only supplied capitalist remedies. I don't think anyone here will argue that the safety community , along with all it's perphrial ride alongs, are anything less than a business in America. I don't think anyone will argue that the aultrism suffers because of that. I do think there's a debate in it's efficacy due to it, and could cross state lines offering anecdotals like anyone else opining here.




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Contrast the assumptoins of many in the inspection trade to the attitude voiced here by many, both within government and without: it's absolutely improper for government to think it has any right to tell a man what he can do with HIS property.

Now, Sparky, if I understand your post, that makes Arkansas something of a utopia. I'm pretty sure you're the first to say that!


Utopia, like Libertopia is the facade of idealouges Reno. IMHO, too little bueacracy tetters on anarchy, too much fascism, the trick is an acceptable balance which allows a society to tick without subscribing to either extreeme


~S~

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Originally Posted by gfretwell


I beat them back in our little community by rallying the "silent majority". I rallied enough neighbors to defeat a proposal to reinstate deed restrictions 60-14 (the biggest turnout at an annual meeting in the 50 year history of the community. They expected to win 14 to 6 or 7.

There are still 14 people here who hate my guts FKM wink



Democracy in action plucks the strings of my star spangeled heart Greg, kudo's! ~S~

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As John (HotLine1) mentioned in the 1st Page of this Thread:

Quote

I'm a firm believer in 'most, if not all' of us have one time or another worked without permits.


I had done so a few times, back in the late 1980's - as the EC I was working for figured the risk factor to be beneficial.
"Stop Work" Notices proved otherwise, but you get the idea...

Currently, there is too much risk for me as a Designer / Engineer / PM, or in the rare occasion of actually installing stuff, to do any Project Sans Permit.

If a Client "hints" towards proceeding without Permits, I always ask "What will happen when your Insurance Carrier asks for Proof of Permits for the new Improvements?"
That usually gets the point across!

Per Unlicensed Contracting Work:
The California CSLB has included an additional "Sting Operation" to their list of Unlicensed Contracting searches.
This one involves "Handyman Classified Ads" from On-Line Databases, such as "Craig's List", "Angie's List", and ect.

Apparently, the "Bait" is to see if Unlicensed Persons will do work, which exceeds $500.00 Labor + Materials.

-- Scott


Scott " 35 " Thompson
Just Say NO To Green Eggs And Ham!
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If anyone is interested, the link below is to the July 2100 Board Minutes. It's only two pages, but it shows the penalties and payment plan for two offenders.

The previous minutes are at the same site.

http://www.state.nj.us/lps/ca/electric/agenda/eleage_070611.pdf


John
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Not to beat a dead horse, but I cannot let irrellevant mis-information stand unanswered.

I've pretty much finished reading "Atlas Shrugged," and I find nothing of the blather that has been attributed to Ayn Rand, the author. Instead, it's a fairly straightforward novel, depicting a world where government power is used to enforce sympathy-driven priorities, and any reference to actual results is taboo. The novel ends with the sympathy-driven society collapsing, and a new one, based upon results, arising.

I cannot speak to anything else the author may have said, elsewhere. Think of L. Ron Hubbard; one can enjoy his science fiction without finding a whit of his (later) religious ramblings. The same also applies to a great number of other authors.

No matter how gloved in velvet the government fist may be, government is all about the use of force. No less than George Washington made this observation. He was surely in a position to know.

Some have averred that 'their' department was reasonable, that the problems came from 'across the hall.' THAT is the problem. The road to permit / inspection hell is paved with sundry bureaus as the stepping stones- much as a tsunami is made up of innocent little raindrops.

When a company fails to serve a useful function, it goes out of business- no matter how noble the founders' intent. The same is not true of governemnt. Even now, in the midst of financial crisis, I do not see anyone in our Federal government talking about eliminating 'optional' departments.

I raise this point because I question whether the growth of governmental involvement in building has really led to any public benefit, including 'safety.' Try this: make a list of the greatest construction achievements- then compare the rules they had to follow to today's list. Yet, somehow, those tall buildings and bridges still manage to function. Look at the engineering marvels being made in places like Bahrain- where the builders face little, if any, regulation. Even in totalitarian places like China, the government pretty much stands aside once the permission has been granted.

Reno's success in essentially eliminating the entire building department puts a spotlight on what is really important to the government- and your safety isn't on the list.

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There are plenty of places out west without any building departments as soon as you get out of the city.
Farmers are pretty much exempt just about everywhere as soon as you get out of the Northeast corridor.
What I see is just what you would expect. Everything form well engineered and built structures to things that have that "3d world" air to them. It would be interesting to actually compare accident and death statistics.


Greg Fretwell
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Not to beat a dead horse, but I cannot let irrellevant mis-information stand unanswered.


I'll take it this mean you don't either like or understand my responses to you Reno, i'll invite you to be specific then




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I've pretty much finished reading "Atlas Shrugged," and I find nothing of the blather that has been attributed to Ayn Rand, the author. Instead, it's a fairly straightforward novel, depicting a world where government power is used to enforce sympathy-driven priorities, and any reference to actual results is taboo. The novel ends with the sympathy-driven society collapsing, and a new one, based upon results, arising.

I cannot speak to anything else the author may have said, elsewhere. Think of L. Ron Hubbard; one can enjoy his science fiction without finding a whit of his (later) religious ramblings. The same also applies to a great number of other authors.



One could read Mien Kampf and consider the author a genius as well, possibly even being totally unaware of the darker motivations the author had


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No matter how gloved in velvet the government fist may be, government is all about the use of force. No less than George Washington made this observation. He was surely in a position to know.


The floudering fathers (no, that's not a typo) fought what they considered oppression, forwarded a historic document on par with the Magna Carta inclusive of all men being created equal, yet owned slaves. Add to this they were moslty aristo's with more to loose to then imperalist England than the average joe of the day, and their alturistic nature people seem so fond of becomes rather tarnished



Quote
Some have averred that 'their' department was reasonable, that the problems came from 'across the hall.' THAT is the problem. The road to permit / inspection hell is paved with sundry bureaus as the stepping stones- much as a tsunami is made up of innocent little raindrops.

When a company fails to serve a useful function, it goes out of business- no matter how noble the founders' intent. The same is not true of governemnt. Even now, in the midst of financial crisis, I do not see anyone in our Federal government talking about eliminating 'optional' departments.



Very true in that big gov always justifies itself , plays the blame game , and can many times operate with less than business like proficency
In fact, there's a good argument in that they seem to be working on eliminating us before themselves. In the grander scope, what you seem to be alluding to is a macroeconomic model condusive to a gainful lifestyle /business existence in conjunction with government. I think i've stated my case in said respect, it's just a matter of what labels or allegiances one would subscribe to



Quote
I raise this point because I question whether the growth of governmental involvement in building has really led to any public benefit, including 'safety.' Try this: make a list of the greatest construction achievements- then compare the rules they had to follow to today's list. Yet, somehow, those tall buildings and bridges still manage to function. Look at the engineering marvels being made in places like Bahrain- where the builders face little, if any, regulation. Even in totalitarian places like China, the government pretty much stands aside once the permission has been granted.

Reno's success in essentially eliminating the entire building department puts a spotlight on what is really important to the government- and your safety isn't on the list.


Some sort of study relevant to governmental protectants relevant to morbidity and mortality over a period of time shouldn't be much of an ordeal to google up Reno, and i'm sure America would loose out placing it side by side with totaltarian regimes who's worker ants go missing by the thousands annually. That said it's essentially discriptive of a free market, pristine lazzie fare unrestrained capitalism. It sounds mighty funky to paint commie countries like China with such descriptions, but in the biz sense they provide grand perspective ,and just watch the bubble they're assuming grow ungainly due to it all. Imho, we've evoloved past the pinkerton's, past the guilded age and robber barons, to be a century ahead of where they are today, we are at our best subscribing to balance

Have we come full circle with it all? Well, i did get the boot here ranting about the safety nazis ,didn't i? Hypocritical that i should do so, after taking so many hundreds of seniors out of the sanctity of their own homes against their will to the fossile home because we deemed them a threat to themselves.

Oh well, did i tell you i look great in uniform?

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Another pet peeve of mine....

Poor writing skills on the app forms!!!

And, lack of required description of work!!

Comments??



John
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I would like to comment on the inspection process, first we need to understand why we have permits and inspections, insurance underwriters require cities and towns to enforce inspections so the cities can maintain their insurance ratings ( a good rating saves every on their insurance costs) we keep hearing big goverment requiring permits and inspections, no truth to that, all your government does is, operate a department to issue permits and arrange inspections, and do this on break even budget, not to create income, but operate the building inspection process, so if you have problem with codes or enforcement, don't complain about big brother, your rights, take your complaints to the insurance underwriters, and their stock and mutual companies that insure all our business and personal insurance property coverages.

My hope is everyone in the construction industry tries to learn more about it inspection process and how it benefits us all

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LK:

Thank you!

Welcome back!!!



John
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