ECN Electrical Forum - Discussion Forums for Electricians, Inspectors and Related Professionals
ECN Shout Chat
ShoutChat Box
Recent Posts
Lock-down Thread
by Bill Addiss - 02/27/21 01:16 PM
Northern Tool Recalls Powerhorse Generators
by Admin - 02/25/21 09:49 PM
You will never guess
by gfretwell - 02/25/21 07:48 PM
New tool
by SMOKEYBOB - 02/15/21 04:59 PM
New in the Gallery:
Facebook follies, bad wiring
FPE in Germany pt.2
Who's Online Now
1 registered members (Scott35), 18 guests, and 17 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Minimum circuits required? #198139 01/13/11 01:57 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,316
renosteinke Offline OP
Cat Servant
Member
I've been given the job to re-wire a small duplex.

The building is divided into two units of different size, and each has it's own meter. One unit is an 'efficiency,' of about 400 sq. ft, while the other is a 1-bedroom at about 500 sq. ft. Both have complete kitchens. Stove, heat, and water heaters are gas, with electric ignition. Air conditioning is a MUST.

My question is: how many circuits do I need for each unit? My first 'quick glance' says 10. If that's the case, I think the accumulated recent code requirements are a bit excessive.

As I see it, each unit will require:
2 breaker spaces for the AC;
1 for the furnace igniter;
2 SABC's for the cooking areas;
1 for non-counter kitchen uses;
1 for the bathroom;
1/2 (one in just one of the panels) for the smoke alarms;
1 for 'laundry' (not that there's any space -or plumbing- for such, and no mention of a dryer); and,
1 for remaining outlets.

I don't think I'm required to separate the sleeping area receptacle from the other receptacles, the outside receptacles from the other circuits, or the lights from the receptacles.

Have I missed anything? Misunderstood something?

Less than 3 ft. of counter space - and I need TWO 20-a circuits? A "laundry" circuit where there's no plumbing? Does the furnace igniter really need a dedicated circuit?

My load clacs -even with the A/C load- come in at well under 60 amps. Yet I'm required to give each 'half' 100 amps .... and it looks like the smallest panel with this quantity of spaces is rated 125 amps.

Have we over-engineered things?


2017 / 2014 NEC & Related Books and Study Guides
Re: Minimum circuits required? [Re: renosteinke] #198147 01/13/11 03:44 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,569
G
gfretwell Offline
Member
Did you look at 210.52(F)ex2? What does the AHJ think about it?

Correct me if I am wrong bit I do not know of an article that would require a separate circuit for the furnace igniter although you still need one for the air handler if this is not the same as the AC. (we don't have a lot of <any?> furnaces here)

As a design issue I would have 2 circuits for general lighting, just so you are not stumbling around in the dark when you trip the breaker. You can pick up your "other kitchen loads" and the smokes on them.

I agree the SABC rule seems silly here but rulz iz rulz. I don't know of a loophole. The handbook shows a picture of picking up the fridge, disposal, "dining area" receptacles and range igniter on the SABCs so that helps your load diversity.




Greg Fretwell
Re: Minimum circuits required? [Re: gfretwell] #198149 01/13/11 03:55 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 7,233
HotLine1 Offline
Member
Reno:
Here in NJ, (sorry you are not) we have a 'rehab' code in the UCC which you could use to circumvent some current code requirements that do not affect life safety.

Have you had a discussion with your local AHJ? You may get some good news.

The 100 amp minimum is something you have to live with.



John
Re: Minimum circuits required? [Re: HotLine1] #198152 01/13/11 04:40 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,569
G
gfretwell Offline
Member
This will give you an idea how hard you can squeeze 210.52(B), particularly if you can call some area the dining room.

From the 2008 handbook

[Linked Image from gfretwell.com]


Greg Fretwell
Re: Minimum circuits required? [Re: gfretwell] #198153 01/13/11 04:55 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,316
renosteinke Offline OP
Cat Servant
Member
I inferred the dedicated circuit from the mechanical code, which requires furnaces to be on their own circuit.

AHJ? Permits? Please .... this existing building has not, as best I can tell, ever complied with any provision of any code whatsoever. Even I, who know little of the other trades, can see plumbing, gas, mechanical, and structural violations at a guick glance. I'm told there weren't always inspectors out here, and I believe them! The scary part is that this is a 'nice' place in the 'better' part of town. (Feel free to imagine what I'm finding in my place on the 'other' side of the tracks laugh )

Thx for the handbook art; maybe I can consider the sleeping area to also be the eating area - at least in the 'studio' unit.

Imagine if this little place had electric appliances? Why, the panel would have to be every bit as large as the one for a house. I'm thinking back to my former home in Reno, where I got along quite happily on a 30-amp service with three 15-amp circuits- and a separate 240 drop for the water heater.

Maybe we can agree that the NEC needs to allow for such modest accomodations ... but how to do it? Make a proposal for each affected sentence - or do we need a whole new article for "antique accomodations?"

Last edited by renosteinke; 01/13/11 05:02 PM.
Re: Minimum circuits required? [Re: renosteinke] #198154 01/13/11 06:25 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,569
G
gfretwell Offline
Member
The general lighting load is always going to be a minor part of the total required circuits these days. It sounds like you are going to be in a 20/40 100a panel anyway so I would just wire it the most efficient way. These days wire costs more than breakers it seems.


Greg Fretwell
Re: Minimum circuits required? [Re: gfretwell] #198174 01/13/11 10:27 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 7,233
HotLine1 Offline
Member
Reno:

You said:

"Maybe we can agree that the NEC needs to allow for such modest accomodations ... but how to do it? Make a proposal for each affected sentence - or do we need a whole new article for "antique accomodations?"

The 'antique accomodations' here (NJ) was the principal intent of our Rehab Code, within the UCC. Who says NJ doesn't do anything right!!


John
Re: Minimum circuits required? [Re: HotLine1] #198181 01/13/11 11:32 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,569
G
gfretwell Offline
Member
We have an "existing building code" but the electrical code is still going to be the NEC.


Greg Fretwell
Re: Minimum circuits required? [Re: gfretwell] #198186 01/14/11 09:35 AM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 7,233
HotLine1 Offline
Member
Our Rehab is presently using the '05 NEC, and is awaiting final writing by the DCA.

It's involved to explain the musts, cans, & don't necessarily have-to's. In short..depending upon the scope of the overall proposed work. Life safety items, and ADA for the most part are mandatory to current codes. Receptacle spacing, clearances, etc are on case by case basis.

Unfortunatley, Reno is not here with me.




John

Featured:

2020 National Electrical Code
2020 National Electrical
Code (NEC)

* * * * * * *

2020 Master Electrician Exam Preparation Combos
2020 NEC Electrician
Exam Prep Combos:
Master / Journeyman

 

Member Spotlight
CharlieE
CharlieE
Indianapolis
Posts: 201
Joined: April 2004
Show All Member Profiles 
Top Posters(30 Days)
MCosta 3
Popular Topics(Views)
275,437 Are you busy
209,330 Re: Forum
196,614 Need opinion
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3