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small appliance circuit #196826
10/28/10 11:03 PM
10/28/10 11:03 PM
Niko  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 356
Campbell, CA
Do the receptacles in dining room and pantry HAVE to be on the small appliance circuit or they are ALLOWED to be.

The way that I interpret 210.52(b) is that they have to be on the small appliance circuit.

what is have always done is (2) or more small appliance circuits just for the counter use.

Am i interpreting this incorrectly?


Be kind to your neighbor, he knows where you live

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Re: small appliance circuit [Re: Niko] #196827
10/29/10 01:07 AM
10/29/10 01:07 AM
G
gfretwell  Offline

Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,301
Estero,Fl,usa
Quote
(B) Small Appliances.
(1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(B) ...


They all have to be in a small appliance circuit and that can be more than two. In a practical sense that only means you feed the dining room and breakfast nook with a 20a circuit instead of a 15a and that only serves receptacles in those 210.52(B) rooms.
As long as you have the two 20s on the counter tops and the dining room is on another 20, I doubt most inspectors would bust you for picking up a living room side receptacle on the other side of the peninsula but it is a violation. You can't just go daisy chaining around the room tho.


Greg Fretwell
Re: small appliance circuit [Re: gfretwell] #196828
10/29/10 02:09 AM
10/29/10 02:09 AM
Niko  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 356
Campbell, CA
So, if the dining and living rooms have been served by a 15A circuit i have been violating the code.

Now, if i do install the mentioned room with a 20A circuit, it has to be AFCI.


Be kind to your neighbor, he knows where you live

Re: small appliance circuit [Re: Niko] #196830
10/29/10 03:16 AM
10/29/10 03:16 AM
G
gfretwell  Offline

Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,301
Estero,Fl,usa
If you have 15a receptacle circuits in a dining room it is a violation. They do have to be AFCI tho.

OTOH a "breakfast room" may not need AFCI.

210.12 says "dwelling unit family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation rooms, closets, hallways, or similar rooms or areas <need AFCI>"

Is it similar to a kitchen or a dining room?


Greg Fretwell
Re: small appliance circuit [Re: gfretwell] #196833
10/29/10 08:56 AM
10/29/10 08:56 AM
H
harold endean  Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,233
Boonton, NJ
Greg,

Here we go with the "SIMILAR" type of room. I think that is very poor wording in the code book.

I believe originally AFCI were made to prevent using extension cords in bedrooms. So why did it need to be on every other circuit in the house?

Now if you pick up a counter top receptacle, can you pick up a dining room receptacle on the same circuit?

Would that dining room receptacle have to be AFCI?

Re: small appliance circuit [Re: harold endean] #196840
10/29/10 12:38 PM
10/29/10 12:38 PM
G
gfretwell  Offline

Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,301
Estero,Fl,usa
If you are doing code minimum yes, that dining room receptacle will be AFCI and you will pick up your counter top on a GFCI behind the AFCI. Cutler Hammer has a combo GCI/AFCI that might be handy here.
The question probably comes with a "great room" design where there is no real definition of where the kitchen, dining room and great room start.


Greg Fretwell
Re: small appliance circuit [Re: gfretwell] #196843
10/29/10 03:33 PM
10/29/10 03:33 PM
Niko  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 356
Campbell, CA
So by doing code minimum install as GREG suggested, install GFCI/AFCI combo unit.

But as a good design, install an additional 20A for the dining room but make sure it has AFCI protection.





Be kind to your neighbor, he knows where you live

Re: small appliance circuit [Re: Niko] #196847
10/29/10 04:32 PM
10/29/10 04:32 PM
renosteinke  Offline
Cat Servant
Member
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,316
Blue Collar Country
There's no reason, from a code standpoint, not to just have a separate, 20-amp, AFCI-protected circuit serve the dining room.

Sure, you might set a crock pot on a table ... that's the reason dining rooms are considered as part of the kitchen area ... but I don't see that table as meeting the 'countertop' that would require GFCI protection as well.

There's certainly no requirement that this circuit have anything to do with the kitchen or the kitchen counter. Code simply says you'll have at least two circuits serving the entire area - and that these circuits cannot serve other areas as well.

In this case, the AFCI requirement is certainly a 'curve ball' tossed our way!

Re: small appliance circuit [Re: renosteinke] #196852
10/29/10 06:50 PM
10/29/10 06:50 PM
HotLine1  Offline

Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 7,037
Brick, NJ USA
Reno:
I agree with you 100%.

As AFCI is fairly new here the DR & pantry is a stumbling block for some guys yet. I had a few say...I'll put the AFCI receptacle in, and it will be 'both' AFCI & GFCI protected.

Most guys run a third 20 amp to the DR & pantry.



John
Re: small appliance circuit [Re: HotLine1] #196899
11/01/10 09:08 AM
11/01/10 09:08 AM
H
harold endean  Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,233
Boonton, NJ
Reno,

Where does it say that a kitchen counter circuit can not feed other areas?

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