ECN Electrical Forum - Discussion Forums for Electricians, Inspectors and Related Professionals
ECN Shout Chat
Top Posters(30 Days)
Recent Posts
Casino Wiring methods
by HotLine1. 12/09/17 10:44 AM
Ground wire Size to water Line.
by HotLine1. 12/05/17 12:11 PM
Flexible conduit to an outside Spa
by gfretwell. 12/05/17 12:28 AM
2017 NEC Changes
by luckyshadow. 12/04/17 06:08 PM
Dimmable LED 2x4 lay in fixtures
by Vulsion. 11/30/17 06:37 PM
New in the Gallery:
Gallery Test
Popular Topics(Views)
242,991 Are you busy
179,381 Re: Forum
170,347 Need opinion
Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 13 guests, and 10 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
#194964 - 07/03/10 01:13 AM Neutral in each switch location 2011 ROP  
gfretwell  Offline

Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,140
This is the proposal and it is accepted in principle.

Greg Fretwell

2017 / 2014 NEC & Related Books and Study Guides

#194969 - 07/03/10 04:01 AM Re: Neutral in each switch location 2011 ROP [Re: gfretwell]  
sparky  Offline
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,311
Exception: Grounded conductors shall not be required where conductors for
switches controlling lighting loads enter the device box through a raceway

well, in a metal raceway, this would be a code violation

etta> sounds like somebody's trying to sell lighting control(s) here


#194972 - 07/03/10 11:42 AM Re: Neutral in each switch location 2011 ROP [Re: sparky]  
renosteinke  Offline
Cat Servant
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,316
Blue Collar Country
Please note that where they say 'grounded conductors,' we usually say 'neutral.' We're talking about the white wire here, not the green.

I see merit to the idea of having a neutral pass through the switch box. At least when a 'raceway' is used (conduit), you can later add a neutral if you need one.

I can see where NEMA is coming from; the various 'energy' codes are getting ever more intrusive, and their main focus seems to be lighting controls. Try adding a timer without there being a neutral present some time ...

At some point you have to recognize that there can never be 'enough code' to make things perfect. Add to that the changing nature of the world, and you get things like mixing plastic boxes with metal studs - something that neither manufacturer ever imagined.

Also forgotten are the assurances of the cable makers, their stipulation that they KNEW their product was very limited, and was thus intended only for very simple, conventional, mass-market uses - things like wiring Archie Bunkers' bungalow. Those products were never intended to be used where there were complex circuit and control arrangements.

Jobs come and go, but 'cheap' is forever. I think the code approach ia a mistake; only when the customer learns to appreciate the value of good design will some of these problems be solved. Until that happens, all these rules will do is drive more work 'underground,' to the unlicensed, unqualified, and unscrupulous "contractors."

#194974 - 07/03/10 12:59 PM Re: Neutral in each switch location 2011 ROP [Re: renosteinke]  
KJay  Offline
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 763
What a surprise to see that the author of this is a member of NEMA.
How would this play out with a 3-way and 4-way switching arrangement?
Does this mean a neutral conductor in every switch box regardless, even where it wouldn’t normally be required for a lighting control? Just wondering, because technically they would all seem to be controlling lighting loads.

IMO, I think the exception for raceway is because they assume you will be able to pull a neutral if needed at a later date.
BTW, digital timer switches that run only on batteries have been around for a long time, so why can’t manufactures just produce lighting controls that use batteries.
Then they can sell a lot more batteries to customers that actually use their lighting controls and not to screw everyone else who doesn’t want or need their lighting control products.

#194975 - 07/03/10 01:09 PM Re: Neutral in each switch location 2011 ROP [Re: KJay]  
gfretwell  Offline

Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,140
The digital device type timers I have seen power through the load. Open the load the timer loses it's brains.

Greg Fretwell

#194976 - 07/03/10 02:44 PM Re: Neutral in each switch location 2011 ROP [Re: gfretwell]  
KJay  Offline
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 763
Greg, the Intermatic 7-day timer wall switches I normally installed used only AA battery power. I could power them up, read the display and program them as well as cycle them on or off in my hand without any electrical connection. They had a manual override and could be connected for either single-pole or 3-way switching by installing a jumper. They also came in both a 15A and 20A model.

I have also installed the Honeywell and other Intermatic ones that have to be connected to line voltage in order to power them up, so I guess it is a design choice, possibly to extend the two CR "coin" batteries life by using them only for memory backup.

#194977 - 07/03/10 05:55 PM Re: Neutral in each switch location 2011 ROP [Re: KJay]  
gfretwell  Offline

Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,140
The one I had on my Christmas lights didn't have any battery at all. Unplug all the lights and it was dead. My wife finally killed it with a bolted fault in a set of lights and I replaced it with a regular Intermatic "tripper" type timer.

I also have 3 "occupancy" detectors that are 2 wire hookup.

Greg Fretwell

#194983 - 07/04/10 10:11 AM Re: Neutral in each switch location 2011 ROP [Re: KJay]  
leland  Offline
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 853
Lowell area, Ma. USA
I see it as a design issue. If that is what the ENGINEER wants,spec it. I see no reason for it to be in the NEC-
This will just add to the cost of install,as did most of the changes in the '08, yet, really doing nothing for safety.

#194991 - 07/04/10 09:47 PM Re: Neutral in each switch location 2011 ROP [Re: leland]  
sparkyinak  Offline
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,328
The NEC is a safety code, not a design code. Bringing the neutral to each switch does not increase safety. It adds to cost of construction by bringing wires to boxes that are not needed. I understand smart switches may need a neutral but that is a design requirement, not a safety requirement. Garbage disposal, under cabinets lights, closet light, attics, craw space lights, etc. do not need a neutral but adds to the cost of construction. That's all it does. Again, NFPA mised the scope of their own document at the expense of our customers

"Live Awesome!" - Kevin Carosa

#195001 - 07/05/10 04:34 PM Re: Neutral in each switch location 2011 ROP [Re: sparkyinak]  
HotLine1  Offline

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,877
Brick, NJ USA
Seems to me that there is a retrofit kind of issue here that NFPA is trying to eliminate in the future, baring any technological breakthrus to alter the situation.

Installers working on retrofitting new devices on existing wiring have utilized the EGC in lieu of a neutral for many, many years. "Gipping the ground" was a common slang term in Northern NJ areas.

That said, yes it was/is considered a NEC violation. I'm refering to a timer or other control device that uses a minimal current. I'm not aware of any safety issues that arose from this, although I DO NOT condone this practice.

Cost increases? Yes! Convenience for changes in affected buildings? Yes!
Design Issue?? IMHO, Yes! Should be a NEC Requirement?? IMHO, NO!, but I'll have to enforce it!!


Page 1 of 2 1 2

Member Spotlight
Posts: 28
Joined: February 2011
Show All Member Profiles 

2017 Master Electrician Exam Preparation Combos
2017 NEC Electrician
Exam Prep Combos:
Master / Journeyman


Shout Box
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0
Page Time: 0.019s Queries: 16 (0.003s) Memory: 0.8231 MB (Peak: 1.0064 MB) Zlib enabled. Server Time: 2017-12-11 03:56:59 UTC