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Joined: Jan 2005
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Cat Servant
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I was talking to a man last night, and he told me how he had stood atop a 12-ft. ladder to repair a light. This led to a discussion of ladders in general, as well as other ways to reach high places.

The first issue that arises is that, once you pass the 12 ft. mark, ladders become two-sided 'mechanics" ladders. The have a larger footprint, weigh twice as much, cost twice as much, and become incredibly difficult to handle.

I recalled that Little Giant has a "skyscraper" telescoping ladder that will get you to a 21 ft. ladder height (working height around 24 ft.) This ladder, alas, is only made in aluminum.

How else to get 'up there?' Scaffolding? Scissor lift? Boom lift? All can work, but .... none of them have the insulating properties of fiberglass.

So, we have to ask: Why is a 20 ft. aluminum ladder forbidden, but a 20 ft. steel scaffold if OK?

Arc Flash PPE Clothing, LOTO & Insulated Tools
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 7,381
Likes: 7
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Reno:
Would not part of the concern be IF whatever is being 'worked' on is 'live'?

A defensive comment on using an alum. ladder was 'all I'm doing is pulling cable'!

FWIW, all the ladders I owned were 'glass. Yes, we also worked off of 'baker scaffolds', pipe scaffolds, scissor lifts, snorkel booms. My bucket truck was insulated and tested as required, even though we did no line work, only lighting.




John
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 109
N
Member
Hello from Washington!!!

Just my oppinion..... The NFPA 70E requires that you make the circuit you are working on electrically safe. If you have followed all the rules, the only issue is that the ladder is rated for the weight of the user, and safe for the application. There is no reason to work it hot..Lock out and tag out!

Jon


Jon Niemeyer
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2
G
New Member
Fiberglass is encouraged in cases ever dealing with electricity (even wood ladders can be a conductor sometimes).

Follow hierarchy of safety to determine steps:
1) Eliminate risk/hazard (turn off all power, lockout)
2) Substitute (higher risks with lower risks)
3) Engineer a solution (reinvent ways to control electrical energy)
4) Awareness (reveal all sources of energy)
5) Administrative controls/communication
6) PPE


Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 853
L
Member
All great ideas.

IN THEORY.

K, now it has to get done, TODAY!!!!

Lets be honest. i was on a 24' yesterday in the snow,AL ladder.
stupid yes. but... Reality kicks in once and a while.
1 neutral and 1 hot-with a sw,hot from a control device.Had to find it.
checked with my wiggies-Hot- stepped away. now i can address the issue.

This was safer than climbing onto the roof to do so.

Risk analysis. That's what it boils down to.
POWER OFF- and from the 40' AL ladder.
In 15 deg F temps, with a breeze!! I see the Environment as a bigger danger.

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 613
M
Member
The last company I worked for had a 14 and a 16 foot wooden ladder and a local theater has a 16 foot a frame with a 10 foot verticle extention all made of wood. They were all custom builds. A local jail has a 3 tier wood extension ladder too and I have a great stoy to tell about using that puppy but not in print ;-)

From a construction perspective I can't see how it matters as long as there are no live wire involved.

Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 8,443
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I have been up extension ladders made of aluminium before today, testing live wires.
I was wearing insulated gloves and outers every time and also made sure there was no bare skin exposed that could have contacted (or been contacted by) the conductors.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not insinuating we should all go out and buy up gloves and outers and start using metal ladders again.

What I am saying is though, is that if you have to work with this sort of gear, you HAVE to minimise the inherent risk to your own (and others) safety.


Last edited by Trumpy; 01/05/10 09:07 PM. Reason: Typo
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 165
R
Member
Duty rating is something that also gets overlooked I weigh 275 LB without tools.

Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,273
T
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IF I have to work on a Baker/Perry...

AND it MIGHT be hot...

I make sure that the scaffold is on rubber - at the base.

But, generally, anything is quasi-safe IF un-energized.

Just another reason that causes me to work COLD virtually all of the time.

I only work hot when pulling voltage and amps -- on my Fluke.

------

You NEVER see a carpenter inviting others to walk upon UNCOMPLETED framing...

So why in hell are electricians expected to flip on uncompleted, un-tested, un-ready work?

I even have to fight my own crews over this. They look upon their OWN completed work without regard to the overall status of the project.

As for me: I see no need to heat up a given panel to show that the feeder is okay. Nor to heat up a branch circuit to show that j-man x did a fine job.

I only want to heat up all of the branches after the errors are corrected.

'Nuff said.



Tesla
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,335
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OSHA requires the use of non conductive ladders and the makers of the little giant ladder does or did make one out of fiberglass but it is expensive and heavy


"Live Awesome!" - Kevin Carosa
Joined: Jan 2005
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Cat Servant
Member
Perhaps someone could cite / link the exact "OSHA" rule?

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 764
K
Member
I noticed that there is a UL sticker on my old 4-ft aluminum step ladder that says UL Listed Metal Ladder followed by some wording about it being electrical conductive, but unfortunately it is too worn to read or get the actual number of the UL standard off it. I also wasn’t able to find anything on the UL website.

The only OSHA rule I could locate regarding conductive ladders was when there are used on or near energized parts. So don’t know if it applies per say.
Section 1910.333(c) -- Working on or near Exposed Energized Parts
1910.333(c)(7) -- Portable Ladders. Portable ladders shall have nonconductive siderails if they are used where the employee or the ladder could contact exposed energized parts.

The ANSI A14.2-2000 standard for metal ladders doesn’t have any reference to using them around electrical hazards that I could see.


I found this interesting link from NIOSH though. There are some examples of avoidable fatalities from metal ladders contacting overhead electrical lines: NIOSH


Here is some info I found on fiberglass ladders.

Fiberglass Ladders
OSHA does not address fiberglass ladders. ANSI does have guidelines to follow when choosing ladders constructed of fiberglass. According to ANSI 14.5 2000, fiberglass ladders should be made out of good commercial grade thermosetting polyester resin reinforced with glass fibers. The following selections need to be considered and followed:

electrical
corrosion resistnace
outdoor weathering
thermal conditions
structural integrity

ANSI Standards and ANSI A14.5-2000 for reinforced plastic ladders. These standards detail specifications on the various materials, construction requirements, test requirements, usage guidelines and labeling/marking requirements for portable ladders.

Joined: Jan 2005
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Cat Servant
Member
Kjay, that's actually a very good citation, and I thank you for your research. It goes to the heart of why I started this thread.

The point I was raising was that we routinely use other metal platforms, and in some situations an appropriate fiberglass ladder simply doesn't exist.

If the use of metal ladders is so bad, we really need to re-think the ways we use these other things - scissor lifts, boom lifts, scaffolding, etc.

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 853
L
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Hard rubber/plastic wheels comes to mind first,unless they are plugged in.Offering a small amount of isolation.

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 764
K
Member
Not to get off topic, but it took me a while to find out what exactly a reinforced plastic ladder is.
At first I thought it was those little plastic step stools that are used around the home, but apparently it is common for pool ladders to be made out of this material, so I guess I learned something new today. smile

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 7,381
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There are appropriate boom type lifts with 'glass inserts in the boom section(s) that effectivly insulate the platform & operator...but that rental item has to be searched for. The rental companies are very CYA about using the equipment properly, all the legaleese is within the rental documentation. Maintaining clearances from electrical lines is probably mentioned many, many times.

A scissor lift theoretically is 'insulated' by virtue of the tires; but yes, contact with a grounded object can be a problem.

There are boom trucks with steel booms, with the basket mounted via insulators.

I owned a bucket truck, 55' TECO, end hung, with 'glass inserts in the lower & upper boom sections. Certified and tested to 35KV.

Bottom line is, maintaining clearances from conductors, and maintaining a non-conductive path to earth. Using a device that is 'non'grounded' via tires is only good IF there is no contact between the earth and the device by a person touching the device. (That's one of the many safety decals)

On the same note, using a 'glass ladder and coming into contact with a live item, and another conductive item.....the 'glass don't help. Training, concentration, and common sense rule!





John
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 939
F
Member
John { hotline } .,

How often you test your bucket truck for insluating testing purpose mine I have do that every year due I routeally work with 14.4 KV system from time to time but majorty of the time I will use them on parking lot luminaires or change service riser where I feel not really safe to use the extendision ladder at all.

But for speaking of step ladders I do not know if I heard rumours they may change the standard { rules } on OSHA.

{ Keep in your mind the Europeans do have it own standards and safety codes but a bit do come from USA side }


Merci.
Marc


Pas de problme,il marche n'est-ce pas?"(No problem, it works doesn't it?)

Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,335
S
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Thanx KJay for the reference. I worked most of the weekend and spent the day helpig a friend rip out some carpeting. OSHA regs are easy to find on their website. Shocking enough. 1926 covers constuction like ladders, scafolding and such.
sub part K is electrical safety.

1910 covers safety in the work place like office, breakroom and such. Subpart S covers the electrical angle. If you understand whats in 1910, its info to pass onto customers to prevent OSHA citations. could make some extra work and a good repore with customers. If you go in and fix something under the guide of 1910, you will fall under the umbrella of 1926 until the wok is done. Make sense?


"Live Awesome!" - Kevin Carosa
Joined: Apr 2002
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Marc:
It was a yearly test & cert.
I did not do any line work, but kept the cert up to date for records on truck & maintenance.

It was used primarily for PL lighting and sign work, and holiday decorations, and a few 'odd' type jobs.

It (records & up-to-date certs when I sold the truck.



John
Joined: Jan 2005
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Cat Servant
Member
I need to point out that even the most recently certified ladder, made of the best 'No Conductium,' will let you zap the crap out of you with just the least amount of dirt, grime, moisture, etc. The same applies to gloves, hot sticks, etc ... and the problem seems to grow as a cube of the voltage (that is, doubling the voltage seems to make it eight times as conductive).

Never rely alone on following an OSHA rule to protect you.

Joined: Apr 2002
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Reno:

100% right on. When nd IF you have to be exposed to 'live' conditions, whatever safety equipment, ladders, tools, PPE, etc. is only as good as YOU maintain it.

A way to ponder the expenses of maintaining equipment should start with.."why do I have to do it 'hot'?" I know that sometimes it is part of the beast of our trade, and that is when we have to count on our safety equipment.

I'm thinking that buried somewhere within the paperwork supplied with any safety equip is a CYA about maintaining said equip.

BTW: Another contractor with the same bucket trk that I owned, added a 120 volt GFI receptacle at the bucket area & did an A1 job. Only issue was, the 35KV Cert was shot!



John
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 764
K
Member
Speaking of CYA, it’s interesting that metal ladders seem to have a UL listing, while on the other hand, fiberglass ladders don’t appear to. At least this seems to be the case with the ladders I own.
I’m assuming that this must be one more way for the manufactures to protect themselves from liability if someone gets electrocuted while using their product.

Being that electrical circuits and equipment by their nature are designed to normally be energized, at least on an intermittent basis, I’m still wondering if it may be too much of a stretch in saying they are all likely to become energized unexpectedly, even when LOTO is performed, seemingly eliminating the use of conductive ladders, etc. for electrical work of any type.

Joined: Jan 2005
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Cat Servant
Member
A nice speculation, but incorrect.

UL has a variety of ladder standards, including one that specifically addresses fiberglass ladders. All of the evaluations center on the strength and stability of the ladder - there is NO examination of the ladder as to whether it is non-conductive. Ditto for wood ladders.

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 764
K
Member
The thing that actually caught my attention was that the UL label on my 4-ft Werner aluminum step ladder included some wording or warning about it being "electrically conductive", so I assumed that this wording or warning must also be part of the listing.
As you say though, this is indeed only pure speculation on my part, since unfortunately, I wasn’t able to find anything on the subject when searching the UL site.

Another question I have is if a ladder were listed, is there a requirement as a condition of the listing that the ladder to have a UL label affixed to it?
The reasons I ask is that none of the fiberglass Werner ladders I own have any UL label on them, even the metal topped step ladders, which can introduce a shock hazard to the user under the right [or wrong] circumstances. These ladders range in age from just a couple of years old to more than twenty, so this makes me wonder why the metal ladder from the same manufacture is UL listed, but none of these fiberglass ladders apparently are.

Joined: Jan 2005
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Cat Servant
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I can't speak to the decisions any manufacturer may make. There is no requirement that the manufacturer 'list' any part of a production run.

Indeed, it's fairly comon for a manufacturer to affix the UL sticker to only part of a production run, or only upon specific request by the customer. UL's position is that no lable = no listing. With the esception of very small items, the UL mark must be on each individual completed item. Small parts can have the marking on the packaging.

Why would a company make perfectly fine items, and not place the UL lable on them? In a word, cost. Firms are typically charged for each lable used; one might even argue that UL owns the lable itself.

You can be sure that UL listing for ladders is a particularly expensive listing. This would be the direct result of our unpredictable, lawyer-driven legal system. If there's ever a suit - and there often are - involving a ladder in the least manner, UL is sure to be named in that suit. While UL is invariably excluded from the suit early in the proceedings, it costs money to respond.

As for your particular ladders, there are other factors that may have come into play. The retailer may have desired a 'special' price. They may have been made elsewhere, in a non-inspected plant, and re-labled on importation. The ladders may have originated with the (now defunct) Keller ladder branch of Werner, over which there were some legal / PR wrangling. Or, the UL lable may have been printed as part of another lable that has since been removed. (Before long, I expect there to be a law requiring all ladders to be at least 8ft. long, just so there's room for all the lables!)

Also, keep in mind that UL does not have as strong a presence in every market; their name may not add much value to a ladder. A classic similar example is the electrical rating of hard-hats; few, if any, have a UL tag on them.

Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 1
J
New Member
" I was talking to a man last night, and he told me how he had stood atop a 12-ft. ladder to repair a light. This led to a discussion of ladders in general, as well as other ways to reach high places.

The first issue that arises is that, once you pass the 12 ft. mark, ladders become two-sided 'mechanics" ladders. The have a larger footprint, weigh twice as much, cost twice as much, and become incredibly difficult to handle.

I recalled that Little Giant has a "skyscraper" telescoping ladder that will get you to a 21 ft. ladder height (working height around 24 ft.) This ladder, alas, is only made in aluminum.

How else to get 'up there?' Scaffolding? Scissor lift? Boom lift? All can work, but .... none of them have the insulating properties of fiberglass.

So, we have to ask: Why is a 20 ft. aluminum ladder forbidden, but a 20 ft. steel scaffold if OK? "

I've talked to a couple electricians, and they have told me to invest my money in a fiberglass ladder instead of steel or aluminum. However, NFPA 70E requires that the circuit you are working on must be 'electrically safe' . If you follow all PPE/ OSHA requirements, and identify all risks, a steel/ aluminum ladder may be used. Even though using a fiberglass ladder is another way to keep you and others around you safe, it is not a guaranteed tomorrow. It is all up to what you or your contractor(s) require.

Last edited by jwes2699; 01/21/18 07:07 PM.
Joined: Jul 2004
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G
Member
As long as the equipment you are opening up is deenergized, I see no problem. If it is energized, you are playing Russian roulette anyway.


Greg Fretwell
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 7,381
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I see some vans with both a ‘glass ladder, and an aluminum ladder on the roof rack. I see most resi ECs using ‘glass step ladders, and when they need the 16’, that’s the aluminum step ladder.

Personally, all the ladders I owned for my business were ‘glass. I also had ‘Baker scaffolds. Add the 55’ Teco bucket truck for site lighting. Interior work was rental scissor lifts or snorkels.

FWIW, the ‘baker’ type scaffolds have rubber wheels, so some may consider them ‘safe’.

The Teco was certified for 26KV, and PPE was MANDATORY on lifts, etc.

What section of NJ are you in??


John
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