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A House that Confounds the Code #190735
12/02/09 06:00 PM
12/02/09 06:00 PM
renosteinke  Offline OP
Cat Servant
Member
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,316
Blue Collar Country
I was looking at a home in Florida, and the arrangement seems to confound the NEC in two ways.

The otherwise unremarkable house is located on a canal. It has an enclosed pool in the back, between the house and the canal. Let's look at two pictures:

[Linked Image]
This is the pool. The house forms the wall on the right, and the screen wall to the left sits atop the seawall.

We've discussed 'sunrooms' before, and formed the opinion that they were 'habitable,' and thus needed receptacles. Yet, in this example, most any receptacle would be within the six foot (?) 'forbidden' zone around the pool. So the question is: to have a receptacle or not?

[Linked Image]
Here is the view from the other side of that screen wall. What's not clear is that I'm literally standing on the water's edge; that cement block wall is the sea wall. While the NEC requires a receptacle in the rear of this house ... are we sure we want one on that sea wall?
Personally, I would look at the code specification of 'accessible from grade level,' and argue that there is NO 'grade level,' that the areas beyond the sea wall are below grade.

What do you say?

Tools for Electricians:
Re: A House that Confounds the Code [Re: renosteinke] #190740
12/02/09 07:52 PM
12/02/09 07:52 PM
HotLine1  Offline

Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 7,039
Brick, NJ USA
Reno:
Are you saying that the concrete that the carpet and hoses are laying on is not a 'patio'?

The 'patio' (cement) IMHO is grade, based on how I see the pic.

This is right up Greg's alley!




John
Re: A House that Confounds the Code [Re: HotLine1] #190743
12/02/09 09:06 PM
12/02/09 09:06 PM
G
gfretwell  Offline

Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,302
Estero,Fl,usa
That is not a sun room, it is a screened pool enclosure and the pool rules take precedence over 210.52. It will also show up differently on the tax appraiser plot plan.
I would expect the receptacle serving the rear of the house to be outside the enclosure somewhere. That block wall is not really a "sea wall" it is just a retaining wall to hold the box of dirt the house sits on. You notice the hose bib is in it.
This must be an old pool. I doubt you could build that today and you certainly would need to relocate the door handle on the cage door. (53" min height).
The door has to open "out"
I would also want to know if the windows are tempered glass and are the frames bonded. Is the cage bonded?
Where is the 36" of clear walkway behind the pool?
The strange thing is the screen cage seems fairly new, based on the cable anchor and the size of the roof members.
It is possible it was inspected by a structural inspector who doesn't understand pool rules (or unpermitted).
Pool finals are usually done by the electrical inspector, strange as that seems.



Greg Fretwell
Re: A House that Confounds the Code [Re: gfretwell] #190744
12/02/09 10:23 PM
12/02/09 10:23 PM
HotLine1  Offline

Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 7,039
Brick, NJ USA
Greg:
A receptacle on the retaining wall would work? Of course, it would be TR/WR/GFI protected and live in a really nice bubble cover!

Thanks for your input on Reno's pics.



John
Re: A House that Confounds the Code [Re: gfretwell] #190745
12/02/09 10:25 PM
12/02/09 10:25 PM
G
gfretwell  Offline

Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,302
Estero,Fl,usa
My wife says, code wise, the screen cage is after Andrew and before Charlie. 1992-2004. I am guessing 130mph wind code area.
[Linked Image]

If this is SE Florida (Miami/Dade) that may never have met code.


Greg Fretwell
Re: A House that Confounds the Code [Re: gfretwell] #190750
12/03/09 12:11 AM
12/03/09 12:11 AM
L
leland  Offline
Member
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 853
Lowell area, Ma. USA
#1 We must determine the install date of the structure and accessories..

With out that we are all just blowing wind.

Re: A House that Confounds the Code [Re: leland] #190751
12/03/09 02:10 AM
12/03/09 02:10 AM
G
gfretwell  Offline

Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,302
Estero,Fl,usa
The real question at this point is how you would get a wire out there. I would seriously consider just going on the side of the house, near the rear or in the outside wall of the screen enclosure kick panel. A lot of time I see EMT strapped to these enclosures for things like this.
In fact I am using EMT for the overhead lights in my pool cage but it is 14' tall. My outside receptacles are on the corners, attached right to the cage. I was able to get the raceways underground before the cage was built for these so it is cleaner than strapping EMT to the wall. At my FIL's house we ran them right along the joint at the base so it isn't totally ugly.


Greg Fretwell
Re: A House that Confounds the Code [Re: gfretwell] #190768
12/03/09 09:38 PM
12/03/09 09:38 PM
HotLine1  Offline

Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 7,039
Brick, NJ USA
Greg:

Any reason for EMT, as opposed to PVC with all that water?



John
Re: A House that Confounds the Code [Re: HotLine1] #190772
12/03/09 10:18 PM
12/03/09 10:18 PM
G
gfretwell  Offline

Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,302
Estero,Fl,usa
I used PVC in the ground but EMT on the cage itself, above ground. It just looks better and doesn't sag.
Some of the bending was tricky but that is half the fun wink

The other thing was I shot it all with medium bronze paint after it was bent but before I put it up, for additional corrosion protection and so it blends with the cage material. I was very happy with the way it came out. I have 15 H-101 style lamp holders around the pool with 15w sign bulbs in them. It makes a real nice light level without that "stallag 17" look. There are also 2 underwater lights on dimmers. I also have some PAR 38s on a separate circuit for when the kids are here and we want it bright.


Greg Fretwell
Re: A House that Confounds the Code [Re: gfretwell] #190792
12/04/09 08:55 PM
12/04/09 08:55 PM
HotLine1  Offline

Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 7,039
Brick, NJ USA
Greg:
I totally agree with you about the 'sag' with PVC. As to your efforts, that's the sign of a craftsman! I guess if the HO's that live along the water here were willing to pony-up the $$$ for a 'matching' paint job, there would be more EMT.

I have 3/4 Sch 80 exposed in limited locations. Next project...EMT and paint.



John
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