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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 4,294
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In both the UL Standards in Annex A, and Types of Construction, Annex E, They've got nothing to do with this discussion.

Article 334 is Nonmetallic Sheathed Cable, which has nothing to do with this discussion either.

The NEC isn't the only Building Code applicable to this situation.

That's why this Area on the Forum was created










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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 7,381
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CRW:

Can you contact one of the AHJ's in your area? The seismic/bldg/or fire code has to be the place to look.

On this side of the Delaware...the AHJ has to cite an Article from whatever 'code' he is failing you for; is it the same in the major Pa cities?



John
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,507
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Okay- My turn to say something. The National Electric Code is the Code I was hired to enforce. Nothing in that Code has me asking the electrician to install any additional wires or jack chain or aircraft cable. If the ceiling can't support the lay-in or recessed fixtures it is a structural issue and the ceiling guy needs to respond. When is the last time you installed additional wires and it did not distort the ceiling and now the ceiling guy is in your face. If it is specified in the plans about additional support I guess there should be some team work between the electrician and the ceiling installer. All I look for is that the fixture is secured to the grid work.

Okay, tell me I'm wrong.


George Little
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 853
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You are spot on George.

Your job is to inspect the EC.

Here (Mass) we support the fixture. not the ceiling. That simple.

yes we all must adhear to and follow the building codes... But... Draw the line.

Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 849
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300.11 Fire rated Assemblies
Exception: The ceiling Support system SHALL be permitted to Support wiring & (EQUIPMENT) that have been tested as a Fire rated assembly.
As I see it then unless a Fire rated ceiling has been tested & approved. it requires additional support. Since its in the NEC as referenced I'd say we have to address it.
(Equipment)SEE Definations Article 100 includes Luminaires(fixtures)
All ceilings are listed & labled as to supports required.
I always tell Electricans to work with ceiling installers & to check and address it. To ignore it I feel & say its a building offical issue ??????

Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 362
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This is part of the Pa Unified Code Act( which made us less unified than ever) It is in the Commercial Constuction Code, somewhere. I don't have a copy. I usally just call AHJ just to see what they say. I have seen the books at the library, in the referance section.

Ob


Choose your customers, don't let them choose you.
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 751
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If you use the 2003 IBC as your building code, then Chapter 16 is the place to go.

Whether or not support wires are actually required depends upon three factors. One is obviously the seismic area the building is in. Another is the importance factor of the building (hospitals are more important than a storage shed). Look to Table 1604.5 in the IBC.
Lastly is the site class of the soils the building is built upon. Look to Table 1615.1.1 for this.

Once it is determined that your building needs seismic bracing, then an engineered design would need to be made. A commonly used referenced standard for this is a book entitled "ASCE 7".

Under this design (and many others) it is determined that an acceptable method of seismic bracing is to attach 2 #12 iron wires of the same sort used by the ceiling installer to diagonal corners of the troffer in rooms larger than a minimum size of 144 square feet. Smaller rooms do not generally require any bracing.

Because of the complexity of these calculation to merely determine where and when seismic bracing is required, many electricians and inspectors simply require all troffers in commercial buildings to have the diagonal bracing.


Earl
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 849
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Goggle
(Drop ceiling Supports light Fixtures) . You get some interesting info from ceiling installers & Manufactors.

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 316
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The jurisdiction I work for has written it in the county code amendments. We try to limit the number of amendments and only have a few. An Electrician is required to install- 2 #12awg,steel wires from the structure to ,2 opposite corners of lay in lights. 1 #12 awg steel wire from the structure to recessed lights smaller then 24". Light boxes for in the ceilings for fire alarms devices, exit lights, surface mounted lights all require 1 #12 awg steel wire also.
Not in the NEC and our Fire Marshall pushed this so it's added as a local amendment.

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 201
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I think the best advice any of us can take is just support the damn fixtures with grid wire. If anything call AHJ and ask whether they want two corners supported or all four. Any large commercial, or retail stores, I have done AHJ has always wanted 2x4 lights supported . I even wire the exit ceiling boxes.

I have done two corners, and sure as hell inspector comes in and says "All four sparky" Or I have done all four and the inspector says "wow, I never see anybody do all four"

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